Does Sanrenmu Produce Any of Their Own Stuff?

[Sunyata]

I've got this one on order

Black with flames, a classic! Windrunner is designing some good looking knives. I have quite a few designed by him. Lianggang designs for both SanRenMu and Real Steel, some models are very close in looks.

Is the bottom one a framelock?

 

[grownstar]

Is the bottom one a framelock?

Looks that way to me. I believe it's the same knife.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Why don't you show your work? Go ask any of the big manufacturers here in the US if they think the illegal copyright and patent infringement hurts their business and our hobby. It does, and to think otherwise is naive.



No, it is a legality argument, thus the use of the word illegal. You are making it political, which is wrong.

Lets say it didnt hurt business. Do you think any one would admit that? Yes when a company sinks money into trying to stop counterfeiting its money lost. But that is a choice that they admit is mostly futile. As for lost sales? I don't believe it. The products target two different groups with different motivations for that purchase. Rarely if ever do they overlap. You do not buy a clone so you can get the same knife cheaper. You buy it because you have no intentions on buying the real one to begin with. Whether its due to cost or just lack of willingness. In nearly all cases i have seen someone buy a replica they would not have bought the real item anyway. So the sales lost are about as much as the person not buying anything period. The real problem though is fakes being hocked as genuine. That is a real problem.

 

[craytab]

People have run circles around this conversation and it never ends good. Regardless there is always 1 single question that no one seems to answer. That question being why is it only "china" that gets singled out in the IP argument. There is plenty of IP theft right here in the USA as well as dishonest business practices. Some of them they are just as famous for their shoddy business as they are their knives yet its tolerated. Why? I dont have a problem with people who dislike IP theft and other issues regarding poor business practices. I do however find it disappointing that companies outside of china seem to be exempt from the criticism. As far as I know shirogorov used the axis lock without permission. I may be wrong on that. But I have not seen them give credit for it.

You have Microtech ripping off ZT and while that caused some stirring it never really effected microtech in the least and discussion of that knife is still allowed even with it being a blatant rip off of what I view as a rip off anyways. Dont even get me started on Strider. I swear that man may not be a "black ops" guy but he sure is invincible. These are just some of the instances that many are aware of. And copying happens in every single product we own. People here just get in a wad because knives are something we all love. Cars, guitars, handbags, phones, computers, perfume etc every single product you can think of gos through the same thing. Does that make it right? no. But it does kinda make you think that if its really about the "cause" and peoples "moral" compass then they should be as discriminating in those areas as well or else its really not about them being against copycatting. You cant choose to just take up this cause with just knives. Its like someone joining PETA but saying they only believe that Cats or Dogs should be protected.

No, there is a clear difference in what I am talking about. It is a legal issue. If the companies in the US infringe on patents and copyrights there is legal action that can be taken. For this reason, counterfeits, knock offs, and patent infringed items aren't produced much here, at least not in the light of day. IP theft that is not backed by legality is a whole different gray area.

Lets say it didnt hurt business. Do you think any one would admit that? Yes when a company sinks money into trying to stop counterfeiting its money lost. But that is a choice that they admit is mostly futile. As for lost sales? I don't believe it. The products target two different groups with different motivations for that purchase. Rarely if ever do they overlap. You do not buy a clone so you can get the same knife cheaper. You buy it because you have no intentions on buying the real one to begin with. Whether its due to cost or just lack of willingness. In nearly all cases i have seen someone buy a replica they would not have bought the real item anyway. So the sales lost are about as much as the person not buying anything period. The real problem though is fakes being hocked as genuine. That is a real problem.

You are talking about 2 different things. I am talking about one: counterfeits, knock offs, and patent infringed items. No legal gray area there. That hurts the hobby and that does hurt US companies. To deny that would be naive (gee, seems like I've said that before....)

 

[PURPLEDC]

No, there is a clear difference in what I am talking about. It is a legal issue. If the companies in the US infringe on patents and copyrights there is legal action that can be taken. For this reason, counterfeits, knock offs, and patent infringed items aren't produced much here, at least not in the light of day. IP theft that is not backed by legality is a whole different gray area.



You are talking about 2 different things. I am talking about one: counterfeits, knock offs, and patent infringed items. No legal gray area there. That hurts the hobby and that does hurt US companies. To deny that would be naive (gee, seems like I've said that before....)

In my quote of you you said "copyright" AND "patent". Thats two things, not one as long as you are trying to count. You also say that you are "talking about one: counterfeits, knock offs, and paten infringed items" Is that really one? Why the distinction between them? Anyways, you forgot trademark which applies here more than copyright unless you are taking issue with a counterfeit (if they actually got a copyright) manual to the knife which I am pretty sure isnt your beef. Do you know what all that stuff is? Intellectual property. So where is your clear difference? And If you want anyone to show their work then why cant/wont you? If your only reasoning is "it hurts the hobby because it breaks the law" then you should know there is a lot of skirting of the law with knives. From importing to production to shipping. And much of it done right here. So if the law is really your issue, then there is a lot more going on than just "patent" infringement that you can be crusading against. I have a feeling though the "law" is more of the crutch in which you are leaning and you probably dont take much issue with the other laws being ignored in regards to other manufacturers. Or at least I havent seen you publicly speak out against them.

 

[craytab]

In my quote of you you said "copyright" AND "patent". Thats two things, not one as long as you are trying to count. You also say that you are "talking about one: counterfeits, knock offs, and paten infringed items" Is that really one? Why the distinction between them? Anyways, you forgot trademark which applies here more than copyright unless you are taking issue with a counterfeit (if they actually got a copyright) manual to the knife which I am pretty sure isnt your beef. Do you know what all that stuff is? Intellectual property. So where is your clear difference? And If you want anyone to show their work then why cant/wont you? If your only reasoning is "it hurts the hobby because it breaks the law" then you should know there is a lot of skirting of the law with knives. From importing to production to shipping. And much of it done right here. So if the law is really your issue, then there is a lot more going on than just "patent" infringement that you can be crusading against. I have a feeling though the "law" is more of the crutch in which you are leaning and you probably dont take much issue with the other laws being ignored in regards to other manufacturers. Or at least I havent seen you publicly speak out against them.

This is getting no where. I will try to address the various issues you raise in order, though I fear it will just be in vain.

Sorry if I am not being clear enough for you. One situation breaks the law here in the US. Another does not. These are the two different situations. I am talking about the first as the second is undefined and gray.

A US company can't put out a direct counterfeit of a Spyderco or Hinderer. They would be in real trouble. A US company can't hope to produce a knock off Axis lock, and call it that, without some legal ramifications. Does that make sense?

I know how to count, no need to try.

I was asked to show my work by a fellow member who didn't address any of my concerns and is defending the counterfeit industry. So I simply asked the same from she/he. I can show my work. Go ask Sal how he feels about all the fake spydercos on the market. Or ask BM if they think the fake axis lock has hurt their sales.

I do know there is a lot of skirting of the law in knives, that is why I am only dealing with counterfeits, patents, copyrights, and trademarks (thanks for reminding me of that one, I have been arguing the same points with so many people I lost track of it myself). I am not dealing with "homages" or other gray areas.

If US companies want to bicker over who copied who, so be it. At least they have that ability and can each have their day in court. Not so much with what the original purpose of this thread is talking about (remember that thing, the OP).

Sorry if you see this as a crusade. It is not. Just trying to get my point across, which for some reason is very difficult for some people to understand. I'll say it again just to be clear: counterfeits, patent infringement, copyright issues, and trademark violations hurt the knife industry and our hobby. We should not be supporting such practices.

Again, if US companies want to sue eachother over IP and what not, great, have at it.

What I am talking about are entities that US companies have no legal recourse against. And yes, since this thread is about SRM, it mostly pertains to the Chines knife manufacturers.

I don't know why you have decided to pick on me with this issue as I really think we agree as indicated in the last line of your previous post: "The real problem though is fakes being hocked as genuine. That is a real problem."

This is all I am trying to get at. Some folks are arguing that the above is fine and doesn't hurt US knife makers or this hobby. That is just plain wrong.

 

[PURPLEDC]

This is getting no where. I will try to address the various issues you raise in order, though I fear it will just be in vain.

Sorry if I am not being clear enough for you. One situation breaks the law here in the US. Another does not. These are the two different situations. I am talking about the first as the second is undefined and gray.

A US company can't put out a direct counterfeit of a Spyderco or Hinderer. They would be in real trouble. A US company can't hope to produce a knock off Axis lock, and call it that, without some legal ramifications. Does that make sense?

I know how to count, no need to try.

I was asked to show my work by a fellow member who didn't address any of my concerns and is defending the counterfeit industry. So I simply asked the same from she/he. I can show my work. Go ask Sal how he feels about all the fake spydercos on the market. Or ask BM if they think the fake axis lock has hurt their sales.

I do know there is a lot of skirting of the law in knives, that is why I am only dealing with counterfeits, patents, copyrights, and trademarks (thanks for reminding me of that one, I have been arguing the same points with so many people I lost track of it myself). I am not dealing with "homages" or other gray areas.

If US companies want to bicker over who copied who, so be it. At least they have that ability and can each have their day in court. Not so much with what the original purpose of this thread is talking about (remember that thing, the OP).

Sorry if you see this as a crusade. It is not. Just trying to get my point across, which for some reason is very difficult for some people to understand. I'll say it again just to be clear: counterfeits, patent infringement, copyright issues, and trademark violations hurt the knife industry and our hobby. We should not be supporting such practices.

Again, if US companies want to sue eachother over IP and what not, great, have at it.

What I am talking about are entities that US companies have no legal recourse against. And yes, since this thread is about SRM, it mostly pertains to the Chines knife manufacturers.

I don't know why you have decided to pick on me with this issue as I really think we agree as indicated in the last line of your previous post: "The real problem though is fakes being hocked as genuine. That is a real problem."

This is all I am trying to get at. Some folks are arguing that the above is fine and doesn't hurt US knife makers or this hobby. That is just plain wrong.

Honestly? I cant go into it any further than I have on the forum. I do admit that people buying counterfeits and then reselling them as genuine is a problem. But as to the rest of it, I can only simply say that we will have to agree to disagree. With that said I wasnt picking on you. I enjoy debate and its a topic that I feel warrants it. IMHO its a topic where more emotion is allowed into the argument that it really should. And sometimes I think people are motivated more by that emotion rather than actual facts . I have no doubt that If I asked Les or Sal about this topic they most certainly would say it hurts them. But I dont think they would go into it much more than that and i dont think they would be completely forthcoming if that hurt wasnt as bad as implied. I subscribe more to the jake hoback way of doing things. Which is let design and information be free information just as long as credit is given to the maker that identifies with it. Its a newer concept. I have talked with some makers that feel its a good and a bad thing. On one hand sharing information and design elements has allowed many makers to improve their products sufficiently. In other cases it has erased much of the individual identity separating maker from maker. Still I think we are at an apex of design. Meaning we have got to the point that new designs of meaning are harder and harder to come up with because it seems no matter what a maker comes up with the first response is always "reminds me of" And I think that is because too many people worry about others ripping them off than just letting the quality speak for itself. Which Is the real reason I think people view china as a threat. Because the quality gap is quickly closing.

 

[craytab]

Honestly? I cant go into it any further than I have on the forum. I do admit that people buying counterfeits and then reselling them as genuine is a problem. But as to the rest of it, I can only simply say that we will have to agree to disagree. With that said I wasnt picking on you. I enjoy debate and its a topic that I feel warrants it. IMHO its a topic where more emotion is allowed into the argument that it really should. And sometimes I think people are motivated more by that emotion rather than actual facts . I have no doubt that If I asked Les or Sal about this topic they most certainly would say it hurts them. But I dont think they would go into it much more than that and i dont think they would be completely forthcoming if that hurt wasnt as bad as implied. I subscribe more to the jake hoback way of doing things. Which is let design and information be free information just as long as credit is given to the maker that identifies with it. Its a newer concept. I have talked with some makers that feel its a good and a bad thing. On one hand sharing information and design elements has allowed many makers to improve their products sufficiently. In other cases it has erased much of the individual identity separating maker from maker. Still I think we are at an apex of design. Meaning we have got to the point that new designs of meaning are harder and harder to come up with because it seems no matter what a maker comes up with the first response is always "reminds me of" And I think that is because too many people worry about others ripping them off than just letting the quality speak for itself. Which Is the real reason I think people view china as a threat. Because the quality gap is quickly closing.

And once again, you will notice I have stayed away from "design borrowing" or "reminds me of" type stuff. I am so tired of repeating my self but if you want to persist in interjecting arguments which have nothing to do with what I am talking about, at all, I will be forced to once again clarify my position.

I am talking about counterfeits, patent infringement, copyright issues, and trademark violations. I am talking about producing your own version of the Axis lock and calling it an Axis lock. I am talking about making knives with other company's names on them. I don't think we need to agree to disagree on that do we? All the other stuff you are rambling about is just you debating yourself. I actually agree with the line between design borrowing and influence being blurry. It is a debate no one can win and I want no part of it.

 

[PURPLEDC]

And once again, you will notice I have stayed away from "design borrowing" or "reminds me of" type stuff. I am so tired of repeating my self but if you want to persist in interjecting arguments which have nothing to do with what I am talking about, at all, I will be forced to once again clarify my position.

I am talking about counterfeits, patent infringement, copyright issues, and trademark violations. I am talking about producing your own version of the Axis lock and calling it an Axis lock. I am talking about making knives with other company's names on them. I don't think we need to agree to disagree on that do we? All the other stuff you are rambling about is just you debating yourself. I actually agree with the line between design borrowing and influence being blurry. It is a debate no one can win and I want no part of it.

Listen craytab. Im not arguing with you. You stated your opinion of which i agreed to disagree. Then i went on to express my opinion which had nothing to do with you or what you said. You see patents as something other than IP. I dont. To me trademark, patents and copyrights all fit cosy with each other in one category called intellectual property whether its the legally enforcable kind or not. I acknowledge and understand we are talking about two different things because we define them differently. I could see that being a problem if i was trying to argue with you. I wasn't. I was conversing. Why you chose to make it about you? I cant answer that. So let me clarify. You did make yourself clear. Now I am making it clear that i dont agree with you. This is the point (just like in my last post) where the conversation stops being about you. The thing i was getting at with Jake is that many of his ideas he could have got patents on. And he could have chose to not share those ideas. He choses to share his knowledge and ideas instead of running to the patent office and telling others they either pay up or dont use his idea. He made it to where no one infringes on his patents because he chose not to get them in the first place.

 

[craytab]

This is getting nowhere. In one breath you say "The real problem though is fakes being hocked as genuine" and in the next you disagree with my denouncement of "counterfeits, patent infringement, copyright issues, and trademark violations". Yup we do agree to disagree then.

 

[PURPLEDC]

This is getting nowhere. In one breath you say "The real problem though is fakes being hocked as genuine" and in the next you disagree with my denouncement of "counterfeits, patent infringement, copyright issues, and trademark violations". Yup we do agree to disagree then.

For ME (just me, not you or anyone you know or are related to) the fake its markings and such is not the problem. Its the people who see it and go "man i can rip someone off with that". You could remove the knife and put any product you wanted in its place. Whether its a replica of a cavalry sword, a purse, or fake diamond ring. These things to me have little harm on the world when a single person decides to enjoy them privately. It would seem then that I hold the people accountable for what they choose to do with a product rather than the product itself. And yes this is going nowhere. Especially if you are hoping to enlighten me and get me to view the topic as you do. To say this is going nowhere seems to imply you have a goal in which you arent reaching. If that is the case sorry to disappoint. I was just trying to have a conversation, not change your thinking.

 

[8steve88]

Sunyata - Is the bottom one a framelock?
grownstar - Looks that way to me. I believe it's the same knife.

Yes, framelock, yes, same knife.

 

[Dis Pater]

Saying this is not about politics but a legal thing is just wrong. American law is not world law, just want to clarify it for the Americans. And since American law does not apply in China or Europe for that matter this is a geo political discussion. When the Chinese factories produce crap, there is no problem but when they produce quality under their own name and the American companys dont get payed its a problem. By default the legal card is played, but China is not in America so thats jus going nowhere. The real issue here is that America and Europe are in economical downfall and the Chinese are giving us more competition than we want. American and European companys has moved production to asia and put Americans and Europeans out of jobs. The Chinese have the knowhow to produce quality now. Now the west is combatting this trend with legal BS and its not working, we sold out in the 80is and we are paying for it now. Western companys produce stuff in China and working conditions are not a problem but buying a knife with a copied axis lock then its a problem. Lets face it we are all hypocrits who want to cover ones own a$$.
Sorry for the rant. Hope i make some sence. English is not my first language😃

 

[davek14]

Saying this is not about politics but a legal thing is just wrong. American law is not world law, just want to clarify it for the Americans. And since American law does not apply in China or Europe for that matter this is a geo political discussion. When the Chinese factories produce crap, there is no problem but when they produce quality under their own name and the American companys dont get payed its a problem. By default the legal card is played, but China is not in America so thats jus going nowhere. The real issue here is that America and Europe are in economical downfall and the Chinese are giving us more competition than we want. American and European companys has moved production to asia and put Americans and Europeans out of jobs. The Chinese have the knowhow to produce quality now. Now the west is combatting this trend with legal BS and its not working, we sold out in the 80is and we are paying for it now. Western companys produce stuff in China and working conditions are not a problem but buying a knife with a copied axis lock then its a problem. Lets face it we are all hypocrits who want to cover ones own a$$.
Sorry for the rant. Hope i make some sence. English is not my first language��

Some truth to this, especially on the selling out part.

Many truths to be told here. Let me add one more. Not the only truth, or factor.... but part of the mix.

What's the cost of living in China? I don't know. I suspect it was low and is now rising. Mexico is an example I know. A Mexican worker can get paid a fraction of an American worker and live rather well.

So, again with the politics. I apologize.

Original (and original enough) designs are made by Sanrenmu. One thing I am finding out is that the Chinese have smaller hands than us and some of the designs aren't as comfortable in hand as I'd like.

*************************************************


Edited to add...

The scalpel like Sanrenmu A148 et al which I do like was apparently handed out en masse some years ago to Indian women to cut the genitals from rapists. Film at 11.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/knives-chili-fend-rapists-india-article-1.1247705

 

[RX-79G]

Original, and very nice:

 

[8steve88]

Original, and very nice:

Very underrated as well, the first knife I bought a duplicate of.
The sound of it locking up, even though it is a relatively thin linerlock, is pure quality.
Simply a very good knife.

 

[KenHash]

Saying this is not about politics but a legal thing is just wrong. American law is not world law, just want to clarify it for the Americans. And since American law does not apply in China or Europe for that matter this is a geo political discussion. When the Chinese factories produce crap, there is no problem but when they produce quality under their own name and the American companys dont get payed its a problem. By default the legal card is played, but China is not in America so thats jus going nowhere. The real issue here is that America and Europe are in economical downfall and the Chinese are giving us more competition than we want. American and European companys has moved production to asia and put Americans and Europeans out of jobs. The Chinese have the knowhow to produce quality now. Now the west is combatting this trend with legal BS and its not working, we sold out in the 80is and we are paying for it now. Western companys produce stuff in China and working conditions are not a problem but buying a knife with a copied axis lock then its a problem. Lets face it we are all hypocrits who want to cover ones own a$$.
Sorry for the rant. Hope i make some sence. English is not my first language��

Allow me to point out a few things. You say that "American law s not World Law". This is true. But a great number of nations throughout the world, in particular the developed nations who conduct vast amount of trade with each other, have developed rules. One of them is the recognition of trademarks and patents across national borders, This is all the more important when many corporations of every country are now funtioning on a mulltinationa level.
China is an exception, they have refused to play the game by everybody's rules and from IP isses, trademarks, counterfeiting, currency manipulation, industrial andcorporate espionage, they have become a headache to the rest of the world. You are correct that we, the rest of world created this Frankenstein monster. But if you keep up with the news
you will see that China's growth has slowed and most importantly their low labor cost is rising drastically. Enough that some foreign corporatuons are moving production OUT of China. How things will change over the ext several years should be very interesting.

 

[Dis Pater]

Allow me to point out a few things. You say that "American law s not World Law". This is true. But a great number of nations throughout the world, in particular the developed nations who conduct vast amount of trade with each other, have developed rules. One of them is the recognition of trademarks and patents across national borders, This is all the more important when many corporations of every country are now funtioning on a mulltinationa level.
China is an exception, they have refused to play the game by everybody's rules and from IP isses, trademarks, counterfeiting, currency manipulation, industrial andcorporate espionage, they have become a headache to the rest of the world. You are correct that we, the rest of world created this Frankenstein monster. But if you keep up with the news
you will see that China's growth has slowed and most importantly their low labor cost is rising drastically. Enough that some foreign corporatuons are moving production OUT of China. How things will change over the ext several years should be very interesting.

What you are saying is true, but part of the reson some countrys wont play along is that they feel like its their turn to have growth and prosparety. They have been feeding our consumtion for years for scraps. Labour like quality of life is on the rise in China, but that can only continue if the west ceeps on buying their stuff. And we have to think about climate change an polution etc....
Wow this thread has really taken a few turns. Anyway glad so many people have chimed inn to this importante debate.

 

[davek14]

you will see that China's growth has slowed and most importantly their low labor cost is rising drastically. Enough that some foreign corporatuons are moving production OUT of China. How things will change over the ext several years should be very interesting.

As cost and standard of living rises I would bet.

I think we have seen the Chinese knife discussion morph a bit from "knives which are similar" to counterfeits and patent infringement. This is a thing with so many grey areas that you kind of have to fall back on to what the law is. That isn't "right" either and that swings both ways, but it's all you've got.

 

[RedLynx]

As cost and standard of living rises I would bet.

I think we have seen the Chinese knife discussion morph a bit from "knives which are similar" to counterfeits and patent infringement. This is a thing with so many grey areas that you kind of have to fall back on to what the law is. That isn't "right" either and that swings both ways, but it's all you've got.

Indeed, this same thing happens (i.e. standards/cost of living) in many countries in Europe, particularly EU countries, as one can easily live in one country, but work in (and make more money in) a neighboring country, then at the end of the day, come back home to the cost of living in their own country. It's very beneficial in many ways. Poland/Germany, or France/Switzerland for example.

Those pics you posted of Indian women are very inspiring Dave. They made my evening. Thank you.