dogs against bad guys in urban environment?

Hi folks! First my background on dogs: Whenever there is time, I help the
people here at my local animal shelter. I try to do basic obedience, walk on
a leash, etc.- especially with the big dogs, some of whom one might consider
"mean" (often people only tell us that they are mean to get rid of them). I
also adopted two dogs (Rott-girl, sheperd-boy) from them.
From this experience, and after reading Massad Ayoobs excellent book "The
truth about self protection", I would avoid an "attack dog" (=a dog which is
trained to attack by itself, not by any commands) by all means. It's ok for
high security facilities, but you wouldn't want to have your family walking
around it. Ayoob compares it to a cocked gun - with it's own brain...
The worst thing one could do is see the dog as a living burglar alarm- they
need love, time, food and cost money. What makes me cry is, that so many
poor dogs are killed every year in US shelters because of a throw away
mentality and because people don't consider all the time&money necessary. If
you want a compadre, who will love, warn and protect you, at least try to go
first to your local shelter or organizations like "Rottweiler Rescue"
http://www.rottrescue.org/ (for New York area: http://www.rottweiler-rescue.org/ )
People there will have done already basic obedience training (plus sortewd out the ones who are unpredicable), the dog won't destroy things or go potty in your flat/house as young ones do. I can really recommend Rottweilers because they are usually more "relaxed" than Dobies and Shepards, but if the **** hits the fan, you can count 100% on them.

Sincerely

Cato
 
rescue orgs would be at the top of my list in terms of finding a good companion.

a good friend runs a golden retriever rescue up in albany. i couldn't agree more: some of the "problem dogs" that she got were sweet and loving, once they got over the fact that the new owner wasn't going to beat them.

i will definitely check out the rot-rescue site..

thanks again!

steve
 
If you need a real family protection dog get the best German Shepherd and trainer you can find. Well bred and trained German Shepherds are great family dogs and are protective, easy to train and smart. If you have small children or have little experience with dog training I would recommend a female, since they are a bit gentler, easier to train and usualy have fewer problems. Most bad guys have a fear of German Shepherds since they are the breed favored by something like 95% of police K9 handlers.
German Shepherds do require at least basic obedience training, vigorous daily exercise and frequent brushing (they shed fairly heavily). To find a good Shepherd check out the breeders in your area. Look for a puppy or dog with parents with OFA certified hips and good temperment (Police or Schutzhund titles are a big plus). A good souce of information may be your local Schutzhund club.
Other breeds that make good family dogs but are not the best prospects for formal protection training include the Lab and the Standard Poodle.
 
Originally posted by frank k
Other breeds that make good family dogs but are not the best prospects for formal protection training include the Lab and the Standard Poodle.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that I agree with you on this one. One of the most capable dog I've seen is a Cane Corso - Rottweiller crossbreed. Another one is a Boxer. I know the german shepherd is great, but don't overlook the other dogs.
 
by far the smartest,most adaptable,stable,predictable dog is the american Mutt...you still have to pay attention to the breeds involved but I'd take a good cross over a purebred anyday.My dog? A 100lb dobie/dane/husy/pitt female. paced her at 39mph when she was younger,sweet,very well behaved,protective but not aggressive.She's only surprised me once,at a party at my neighbors there was a guy who seemed nice enough,She wouldn't let him anywhere near me and barked if I turned my back on him,I found out later he was a fugitive on a murder rap!
 
I disagree with Ayoob, in fact I think he overly rated. I don't think members of LE who live with their dogs have any trouble with them . When I was in the service, guys who trained the dogs etc.. actually lived with the dogs and raised it as a family pet.
 
Devilboy,
I'm sure you will hear this a million times when you go to purchase your new dog. BUT< PLEASE wait. Dogs that are brought home at Christmas time when children are off from school, and parents are home on vacation have a VERY difficult time adjusting to the absence of those same people when life gets back to the normal routine. Even if you wait until the first of the year it will be better for the dog. I understand completely the surprise of a new puppy "jumping out of the box on Christmas morning" but please at least research this option before you get your new loved one. OR you could do the opposite of waiting and get one for Thanksgiving, when everyone is still pretty much on their same schedule.
 
there are no young kids in the household. my niece and nephew are across the way, but they've already got a rhodesian ridgeback in the house.

when i say family, it's me, my 'rental units, and my granduncle.

i've been around animals my whole life, and have seen how some people treat (or mistreat) their animals while professing to love them. what i'm trying to say is that i know the responsibility involved, and do not take the decision lightly. the prevailing attitudes at the forum show me that i've come to the right place with my questions!

the dog would basically be for me (i'm 25), and also for my peace of mind while i'm away from the house. while i've had exposure to and been around most of the breeds mentioned, it's been years since we had a dog in the house (malumute/shepherd mix: she was HUGE) for the simple reason that i've been away at school and the folks couldn't really handle an animal that size on their own (in addition to the cats).

in terms of breeds, right now i'm leaning towards one of four possibilities: a rott, a boxer, an akita, or a shelter-found mutt.

thanks again for all the posts in this thread: it's definitely given me some more food for thought.

cheers,
steve
 
Perhaps I have a slightly different slant on this. I've trained dogs for police departments, and have owned German Shepherds so well trained they could drive me to work. But such proper training needs ongoing work. Frequent tune-ups, etc.

I think most of us have to weigh the (impression of) security against liability. Large breeds of any kind carry a (unjustified) image, much like a loaded gun. I've also watched top dogs "work" a trained agitator or assailant: the trained agitator or assailant with a knife will probably always win.

So I think the ideal URBAN protection dog is:
Small enough for the owner to pick up, but fast enough to evade anyone else.
Possesses a bark which would wake the dead. And is trained to immediately get quiet when told to do so.
Will hold a "stay" amidst a passel of cats, tennis balls, treats, calls of strangers, etc. And will not take food from the ground or from a stranger who does not know the "o.k." command.
And finally, who will bite only under two conditions 1) the owner commands it, and 2)the owner is struck and hits the ground. Never on the dog's own decision. I care nothing about a bone-crushing, man-dropping bite. It can often be defeated. I want a dog to be like a tiny chainsaw.
The owner's job, while this small, quick, loud dog is doing his, is to get armed and protect both the homeplace and the dog!
 
Originally posted by Naro

Will hold a "stay" amidst a passel of cats, tennis balls, treats, calls of strangers, etc. And will not take food from the ground or from a stranger who does not know the "o.k." command.
Click to expand...

You just described a dead dog :D
Now seriously, a normally socialized dog can not do what you described. I've seen quite a few trained dogs. One of them did all what you said and even a lot more. But it was no more a companion for it's master, it was just an automate that did the required tasks. One should not push the dog training too far. It's a form of abuse towards an animal. A dog who can do "sit", "stay" (eventualy "attack" and "let go") is trained enough for me.
 
Flava, I respectfully disagree. A dead dog is one who hasn't been trained to hold a stay amidst serious distractions, to halt from a run, and to avoid picking up food from the ground or from strangers.

A good basic canine obedience class often teaches just those elements. And if your dog can't be taught to do those things (actually, dogs can be taught more than their owners... IMHO) then the dog is not suitable for training for any "bite work".

Relying on a dog's "natural" (i.e. untrained) abilities is pretty iffy. Most of the male dogs I've trained would "naturally" prefer to pee on the easy chair rather than go to the door. A little guidance from the owner is needed. More true if you want to rely on the dog's untrained "bite & let go" abilities, or his own decisions regarding when to break a stay and when to take food.

Canine socialization, technically, takes place or fails to take place depending primarily on the age of the animal and the experiences and exposures they have. Training almost never corrects dissocialization, if the animal didn't get some of the proper experiences during what is called a Critical Period (some experts will say this is ages 1-4months, but I don't know if I agree). But you don't want to rely on untrained socialization, either. Your dog can't be allowed to decide he/she is Alpha to your children.

What do some of the seasoned canine trainers out there say about all of this. It may just be my misguided opinion!
 
Naro, after reading your initial post one more time I realized I missinterpreted your statement. My english betrayed me. I was mistaking "treats" for "threats". My opinion is that a normal dog can not be trained to ignore threats. There are instincts you can not override.
I agree with your point of view on socialisation. I don't really know about the "critical" period though. There are breads who grow "slower" and the critical period might be extended.
I still think "sit", "stay" , "attack" "let go" are enough. My dog does them and it works out good. The "stay" works as "stop" and "no" too. We trained him ourselves except for "attack" and "let go" which required extra help (a "bad guy"). For "treats", the method we used is a very simple one. We asked our friends, neighbours etc. to give him treats with one hand and slap him with the other hand when he accepts them. Then we offered him treats (after 5 minutes) and rewarded him verbaly after acceping them. After a few experiences like this, he will show you his teeth and avoid you if you try to give him a treat. For the "food on the ground" problem I did not find a acceptable method (I hate the electric impulse collar stuff), he still eats crap if I don't see him. Maybe you have a sugestion ...
 
Naro, you wrote:

So I think the ideal URBAN protection dog is:
Small enough for the owner to pick up, but fast enough to evade anyone else.

Would you please suggest some breeds that fit that description, in your experience?
 
A Norwegian Elkhound comes to mind (except they are stubborn as all get-out). They can be pretty da**ed viscious when they need to, and are deadly quick. Not TOO heavy, if you feed them right and keep them in shape. A nicely maintained one tops out around 45 lbs, I believe. You won't be winning any 100 yd dashes while carrying it, but in a pinch you can carry one.
 
Flava,
Sorry you're down on electric training collars. Properly used, they can help you solve and train-out many problems. But I do think most people I've seen with them don't know what they're doing, and use them instead of good training technique. I've "poison proofed" with fence chargers and with electric collars. The trick is to set up ambushes, where your dog gets nailed and you're not there! You can do this with food on a mousetrap also. But you have to keep your scent off of both the food and the mousetrap. BUT FIRST... you owe it to the dog to work him, on leash, around food scraps and handouts, using leash corrections and "NO.. leave it" (or some other verbal command). You do this until you no longer need to do or say anything while he's on lead. Graduate to long line (I use 25ft paracord)... you barely in view.. etc. Correct the heck out of him if he touches the food. Pull him to, and show him the food while reinforcing the correction verbally. Nothing is 100% with dog training, but in this context anything is better than nothing.
 
Leo,
I can't recommend or reject any breed. Frankly, the temperment and fitness variance among dogs within a breed can be as wide as that among dogs of different breeds. In fact IMHO, good Scheutzhund trainers are, first, good testers and selecters of puppies.
But my point in my comments was to suggest that, really, my choices are breed-irrelevant. You're looking for the behaviors and training I posted about. I don't care if it comes from a border collie or a pound-rescued mut. And truthfully, you're looking for the attitude and effort of the owner to properly train his dog. Not to attack, but to give US time to attack.
The absolute deadliest, most expert handgun "self-defense" expert I've ever seen was an old guy in the mountains of Virginia who could put round after round in your eye at 30 feet from his .22 H&R revolver... while he was standing in snakes and his hair afire! I've seen a 15 year LEO drop his pistol when my G. Shep. curled his lips at him. It isn't the gun, it's the guy! It isn't the dog, It's the trainer!
 
Naro,

I agree with you. In fact, I've always believed that the responsility to protect my home and my wife is mine. A dog should be like a member of the family; I'd expect him to use his sense of smell and hearing to alert me in advance of any invasion attempts, and them the actual home defense would be up to me, if necessary.

Leo
 
Though I agree with Naro, the average person is not going to spend the time required.

Basic obedience is a must.

IMHO, big dogs are a deterent just because of their size and because I like big dogs. :D

Leo, if you want a smaller dog consider the Tibetian Terrier.

I have heard good things about them and that is what they are used for in China.

Be sure to buy from a good breedder.
 
Rockspider and Rick, thanks for the tips. Though I've been a big-time animal lover all my life (not to be confused with those animal rights loonies, please), it's the first time I hear of both the Norwegian Elkhound and the Tibetan Terrier. I'll do a search later on and see what I can find about them.

Leo
 
I agree with Naro, who knows this subject well (probably better then me), but I still will make the case for a well bred and carefuly selected German Shepherd for formal protection work. I don't think your liability would be much less with a small dog than a big one, if someone is wrongly injured by your dog your in trouble regardless of his size, sort of like shooting someone with a .45 instead of a .25, at least thats how I see it.
 
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