Dogs I have known - rescues - new homes and friends

[gurkha berserka]

Mastiff is one of the strains used to make the Ridgeback and Blackmouth. The Mastiff is considered a base species as most dog breeds are derived from Mastiff blood. Pugs, Great Danes, and any other dog with a "black mask" on their face have Mastiff bloodlines in them. Mastiff generally run 130-180 in males and 100-150 in females. He is a little to small in my opinion to have straight Mastiff blood in him.

Mastiffs also have shorter legs in the front than in the back and they tend to have a droop to their spine right in the middle of their back.

The long legs lead me to believe he is a Ridgeback... His head isn't massive enough to be straight Mastiff bloodline. He does however have Mastiff in him just like every Pug, Pekingese, Great Dane, Bulldogs, Dogo's, Boxers, ect ALLLLL are derived from a base Mastiff bloodline along with a mix of other dogs.

I could be wrong, but I have studied dog breeds extensively and have tons of reference material on hand. I save every book I buy and I was "into" dog breeding and all thing dogs about 15 years ago. My brother has a female brindle Mastiff named Sammie. She is 160lbs of pure love. She has a bad habit of smelling everyones crotch upon entry into the house. Nothing worse than a big nose with 160lbs pushing begind it right into your crotch. She has brought me to my knees a few times

 

[Moonw]

Having experience with dogos, and having right now 13 dogs in care, but never under 6 (around the 100 pound mark), I can tell you that when it comes to bull-breeds you cannot be too careful. One day there's going to be a small incident and from that point onwards you will have a dog fight to break. Always good to be nearby (well maybe in this case they will behave), have a chance to stop it. (As long as you know how to safely stop a dog fight.) It's not the dogs' fault, it's the failure of the people to understand what they were created for and how much more suited for combat they are than the average dog. No, it's not all in how they are raised, as some people love to say. These dogs pay tribute to their genes. Pitbulls for example may be the most gentle and human loving animals out there, but I will give more credit to a few hundred years of extensive breeding and culling for animal aggression than to most people's ability as trainers, especially when they are not around, when it comes to their manners around anything that wears fur.

Gurkha, I wouldn't say that the black mask 100% means there is mastiff blood involved. I guess you are thinking about the what we call today Mastiff proper, the English one. The old mastiffs were, I think, a much larger and varied group. By the time the pugs hit the English shore, they already had the black mask, their ancestors having never seen an English mastiff. But when it comes to dogs, it's all speculation, and many, many romanticized "facts".

As a disclaimer, I am big lover of bull-breeds, I think in some ways they are the best dogs out there, but this very fact won't make me turn a blind eye to what I know for a fact: they need to responsible ownership because of their capabilities because they won't stop easily, if at all, once they start anything.

 

[Lee D]

Having experience with dogos, and having right now 13 dogs in care, but never under 6 (around the 100 pound mark), I can tell you that when it comes to bull-breeds you cannot be too careful. One day there's going to be a small incident and from that point onwards you will have a dog fight to break. Always good to be nearby, have a chance to stop it. (As long as you know how to safely stop a dog fight.) It's not the dogs' fault, it's the failure of the people to understand what they were created for and how much more suited for combat they are than the average dog. No, it's not all in how they are raised, as some people love to say. These dogs pay tribute to their genes. Pitbulls for example may be the most gentle and human loving animals out there, but I will give more credit to a few hundred years of extensive breeding and culling for animal aggression than to most people's ability as trainers, especially when they are not around, when it comes to their manners around anything that wears fur.

Gurkha, I wouldn't say that the black mask 100% means there is mastiff blood involved. I guess you are thinking about the what we call today Mastiff proper, the English one. The old mastiffs were, I think, a much larger and varied group. By the time the pugs hit the English shore, they already had the black mask, their ancestors having never seen an English mastiff. But when it comes to dogs, it's all speculation, and many, many romanticized "facts".

As a disclaimer, I am big lover of bull-breeds, I think in some ways they are the best dogs out there, but this very fact won't make me turn a blind eye to what I know for a fact: they need to responsible ownership because of their capabilities.

Excellent post :thumbup:

 

[gurkha berserka]

Gurkha, I wouldn't say that the black mask 100% means there is mastiff blood involved. I guess you are thinking about the what we call today Mastiff proper, the English one. The old mastiffs were, I think, a much larger and varied group. By the time the pugs hit the English shore, they already had the black mask, their ancestors having never seen an English mastiff. But when it comes to dogs, it's all speculation, and many, many romanticized "facts".

Actually most every dog with a black mask does have Mastiff blood in them. That's the point I was trying to make. The black mask = Mastiff which contributes to most dog breeds. The Mastiff is one of the oldest species of dogs. Most any pure breed dog with black mask has Mastiff blood... That's were the mask comes from! The Mastiff has been around longgggggggg before England. The Romans use to use them as dogs of war

Here is a list of breeds that were created with Mastiff blood...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mastiff-type_dog_breeds

The Pug is a direct ancestor of the Mastiff.

More proof to my point..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molosser

and even more...
http://stason.org/TULARC/animals/dogs/mastiffs-breed/A-History-of-the-Mastiff.html#.VQHF6-9FCUk

 

[Moonw]

Excellent post :thumbup:

Thank you. I'm sure people around here are good dog handlers, but speaking in general people are naive / out-of-touch-with-reality when it comes to properly dealing with a lab or golden retriever...so where does that leave the much more capable and willing dogs?

I waste no opportunity to spread some facts, as it may help someone reading, someday. "Oh, but he/she NEVER did that before." is always too late, especially in the society we live in today. I tend to be firm but fair with my dogs, and rarely heavy-handed when thick skulls are involved and somewhat higher stakes. If you guys always employ good practice when handling weapons, I do the same with the dogs.

I'm not even mentioning dogs that are prepared to offer combat to men, those are in another class and subject, for another day.

 

[ndoghouse]

Did ya hear that Pugs?
You thought you were fron NC

Ill get more pics up soon Thanks for all the good info guys. All I know is hes big, eats a lot, and wakes me up way to dang early in the morning. Maybe hes part Rooster?

 

[Moonw]

Actually most every dog with a black mask does have Mastiff blood in them. That's the point I was trying to make. The black mask = Mastiff which contributes to most dog breeds. The Mastiff is one of the oldest species of dogs. Most any pure breed dog 90% a black mask has Mastiff blood... That's were the mask comes from! The Mastiff has been around longgggggggg before England. The Romans use to use them as dogs of war

Here is a list of breeds that were created with Mastiff blood...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mastiff-type_dog_breeds

The Pug is a direct ancestor of the Mastiff.

The issue I have is that you are equating the old molosser dogs that were around Roman times with the modern English Mastiff.

Anyway, by the 16th century when the Pugs were imported to Europe, England already had dogs similar with what we'd call today the English Mastiff. So what breed was infused in which one?

 

[gurkha berserka]

Did ya hear that Pugs?
You thought you were fron NC

Ill get more pics up soon Thanks for all the good info guys. All I know is hes big, eats a lot, and wakes me up way to dang early in the morning. Maybe hes part Rooster?

I think my cat has some rooster in him. The damn 25lbs beast wakes me up at 4am every day to open the window for him and to give him his food. He is lucky I love him or I would make a cool sheath out of his hide.

 

[gurkha berserka]

The issue I have is that you are equating the old molosser dogs that were around Roman times with the modern English Mastiff.

My last link explains the connection with the molosser dogs. The pug is listed there as having Mastiff blood as well. The English Mastiff is just the molossers purest form...

here is the link
http://stason.org/TULARC/animals/dog...l#.VQHF6-9FCUk

 

[Moonw]

My last link explains the connection with the molosser dogs. The pug is listed there as having Mastiff blood as well. The English Mastiff is just the molossers purest form...

Well, honestly they should have left everything at the "theory" level. With all due respect, but there are very few real historians of the dog breeds - I should've better said "types", because quite frankly people back then didn't have as strict of a definition of a breed as we have today, and I don't recall Mr. Mike McBee as being one of them. I'm genuinely not trying to sound like an a**hole, but I see simple statements, w/o any proof. Truth is, we have no idea how the ancient molossers looked like, at least the original ones...see picture below for the best guess. We have some idea about how the British Pugnances looked, when they were later imported by Romans.

What I do agree is that the Pug is hailing from the Molosser type. But then, today's English Mastiff is also coming from the ancient Molossers. Please keep in mind that old texts used the terms "Mastiff" and "Molosser" interchangeably, as many do today as well. Also, keep in mind that looks back then didn't define so strongly a type, as more the function of the dog.

So a Saint Bernard-like dog back in the days, big, hairy dog, nurturing an extreme distrust towards strangers, or a Caucasian Sheepdog, or what was going to become the English Mastiff one day would all be called "Molossers" or "Mastiffs".

Here is a picture of a big Roman molosser :

See that long muzzle? That didn't disqualify it as a Molosser. (This could very well be the ancestor of the Pug, if it somehow got to China.) Just as the term "Bulldog" later used by the English was foremost based on function, and not looks (people were looking at dogs as tools, and didn't care if they were ugly as sin as long as they did their job).

 

[gurkha berserka]

No biggie man we can agree to disagree. Everything I have read about he Mastiff leads me to my answer. Most if not all history is just a collection of "idea's" due to the person interpretations and prospective anyway. Every book and every link I try say those breeds are a derivative of the Mastiff, hence my opinion

 

[Moonw]

One last thing, just to show how much we really know about the dog breeds, try to find out how the Bullmastiff was created. They will say Bulldog + English Mastiff. But then some will mention Bloodhound. You will soon find out that "Thorneywood Terror" was the first Bullmastiff. Then you will find various sources calling it nothing more than a bandog, and that it had a splash of Great Dane. Good luck finding whether the Bulldog was the pre- or after the infusion of Pug blood .

Truth is we have no idea, and even today with all the Kennel Clubs and so I can tell you for sure people are mixing in sometimes "new blood" in purebreeds and then washing some signs away by breeding back inside the breed for 2-3 generations.

Here are some historical pictures of Bullmastiffs w/o the mask, although every source mentions Mastiffs among their ancestors:

 

[Moonw]

No biggie man we can agree to disagree. Everything I have read about he Mastiff leads me to my answer. Most if not all history is just a collection of "idea's" due to the person interpretations and prospective anyway. Every book and every link I try say those breeds are a derivative of the Mastiff, hence my opinion

Sorry, posted before reading that. No biggie indeed . I think you will still enjoy the historical pictures! And SO NICE to see another person interested by the history of dogs!

 

[gurkha berserka]

Sorry, posted before reading that. No biggie indeed . I think you will still enjoy the historical pictures! And SO NICE to see another person interested by the history of dogs!

Here are some VERY OLD images of Mastiffs that sure look like English Mastiffs to me.

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Like I said we can agree to disagree. My reference material proves my point over and over again as does the many books I have read on the subject. Opinions are like A#$Holes... everyone has one and they all stink

I had said that every dog with a black mask has mastiff in them. I did not say every mastiff type breed with have a black mask...

I do see your point about not knowing for sure. I guess its up to interpretation.

 

[Moonw]

Well, the 2nd one seems to me rather new, seems like an engraving and that couldn't be quite ancient (I think)? 1st one could be anything, really, last one could very well be an uncropped working Presa Canario (I know - impossible, but you get the idea), or pretty much any other molosser out there. Fact is, all the molossers look quite similar, especially in stone. But I won't for one second believe that people kept 3000 years the same breed we call today English Matiff pure...and we're not even talking about a single civilization, but several that owned them. I would state, though, that molossers have been around for a long time and that the English Mastiff from today can be traced back to the ancient molossers. And the Pug is a molosser.

People would look at old pictures of neapolitan mastiffs that had much less skin and were more athletic and would say that the cane corso is an ancient breed...or the other way around. Yet every historian / fan of each breed will tell you about each breed how they came brought in by Romans and how much the same guys loved dog fights when they had tons of exotic animals to pit one against the other.

Yet another variable...look how the breeds have changed:

Shar Pei:

vs

Would hardly say it's the same breed today. For this reason, when some historian tells me that during wars, famine, plagues and so on, with the difficulties involved in traveling to breed dogs of the same type, poor veterinary knowledge, no antibiotics and so on, people strived for so long to keep a breed pure, I will call BS. Heck, it took only a few years to crossbreed the original Alaskan Malamute bred for maybe hundreds of years by the Inuit that were indeed secluded by the rest of the world with every dog that could pull a sled. Two words: people, gold. Alaska had its own Gold Rush. Dogs were tools, people needed more of them. They got more.

 

[gurkha berserka]

Glad to see a fellow dog lover and breeding buff. I haven't been into dog shows or breeding for years now. I am a mutt type of guy now, I've owned a few German Shepards, a Rotty, Shitzu, American Bulldogs, red nose Colby American pitbull terrier, and a few others throughout the years. I am into Maine Coon cats now. I have one I trained to walk on the leash. I get stared at by all the people on my street.

 

[Moonw]

Glad to see a fellow dog lover and breeding buff. I haven't been into dog shows or breeding for years now. I am a mutt type of guy now, I've owned a few German Shepards, a Rotty, Shitzu, American Bulldogs, red nose Colby American pitbull terrier, and a few others throughout people on my street.

Same here, nice talking to you Sir. I am breeding as well (very rarely, small scale, non-commercial, more $ in dogs than we'll ever make...that's OK ), but as I said before back here people frown at any kind of "weapon" so regretfully I won't be able to reveal too much about myself. Had a few nice showings in Crufts some time ago, but I'll just state I'm not too fond about what people are doing today with my breed of choice.

All that said, I simply love dogs for being dogs and at this moment I have *too many* - mine, other peoples' for care, or showing. I apologize if I came out too pushy about my "beliefs", in the end I don't care how they got here...glad they did.

 

[ndoghouse]

Man! Thats some interesting reading! Thanks for the history lesson :thumbup: Yall definitely know more about my dog than I do?

 

[Bawanna]

I'm a big labrador fan myself, had a few black, always wanted a yellow, never had one.

About the only dog I've encountered that does what I tell it and with a little training can do useful stuff.

They like to chase sticks and actually bring them back, don't have to bend over so far to pet them. Mine never seemed to insist on sleeping on top of me either, content to sleep the floor nearby.

Unlike my terror terrier that thinks I'm a trampoline. We're best buds but sometimes it's a very trying relationship.

 

[Lee D]

No such thing as a purebred "red nose" Colby dog, its not a trait that pops up in their animals..... and that came directly from Lou Colby (RIP buddy) himself in a discussion we had years ago at the ADBA Nationals. Selective breeding and culling for many many decades eliminated that trait from the gene pool.