Doing some stabilizing

[kuraki]

Just thought I'd show some of it off. I can do a more in depth "how to" if it's wanted, I'm guessing it's been done before. I'm using Cactus Juice from TurnTex as my stabilizing resin. I have a small but high quality Dekker rotary vane pump I bought at an industrial auction for $30. It's only 2 CFM, but it's capable of pulling 29.75 in/hg. I started using mason jars as my vacuum chamber, with a barbed fitting in the lid...that led to this:

Vacuum pumps get hot. Cactus Juice is heat cured. You don't want to suck it into your vacuum pump No real damage done, just a pain to get the ports cleaned. None made it into the rotary vane cylinder.

So I bought a $120 aluminum vacuum pot that's meant for stabilizing - it has a glass lid rather than a polycarbonate. A gallon of CJ is $90, and a quart is $30. I bought one of each. So my total investment for stabilizing equipment and resin is $270 at this point. A couple bucks for some tupperware to keep dyed CJ separate from un-dyed.

Here's the batch I worked on last night in the pot:

Basically, immerse the wood, pull a vacuum until the bubbles nearly quit, allow it to soak at atmospheric pressure for a period of time, then bake to cure at 200F for a couple hours.

So I start with this punky piece of maple burl I got on Ebay for $38 shipped:

Buck it up into roughly 1.5x2x5.5" slabs. I got a dozen good slabs out of that piece.

Because of the shape I'm left with some odd shapes like this, that later I will join by casting Alumilite with them.

So into the pot for a couple hours, then the oven for a few hours, and cleaned up to 100 grit only with a light buff to put a little shine. Only had time this morning to do these 5 before work.

Here is some stuff I've done over the last week or so:

Black walnut

Curly maple with alumilite cast into the live edge

Curly maple, I'm thinking about casting this live edge with clear resin so it can be seen in the handle it becomes. CJ was dyed blue before infusion.

More dyed maple with a cast filled void.

I'm having a lot of fun doing this. Each time I take a freshly stabilized block to the grinder it's like Christmas morning opening a present to see what kind of figure I'm going to reveal from that piece of wood

 

[timos-]

Very cool. I have been wondering alot about this process. It is really appealing to my fine arts type background with all the composition and color possibilities. That seems like some great results for the money invested. I have wondered about the quality of the cactus juice stuff though. Would you say that the end product is impervious to moisture/humidity?

 

[kuraki]

Yes, I would say that it is. My first couple attempts didn't get fully impregnated because I was doing it without a vacuum gauge and not pulling enough vacuum, only 26-27 in hg, and you really need to pull 29 to get full penetration. However, now that I have a gauge and vacuum chamber, cleaned and reoiled the vacuum pump with proper oil, everything I've stabilized gets full penetration and a good cure. I have some K&G stabilized blanks and have made a couple knives with them, and at this point I cannot tell the difference.

I'm hesitant to do destructive testing on a K&G blank because of what I paid for them, but I'd be more than willing (in fact, I'm going to shortly) try to do some objective testing on a cactus juice stabilized blank. I'm thinking one test would be weighing the stabilized blank, soaking it in water over night, wiping it dry on the surface and weighing again to look for any gain. Then I'll beat it with a hammer because breaking stuff on purpose is fun.

What I've noticed when grinding them anecdotally, is they do not seem to pull any water or WD40 when I'm sanding/grinding them.

 

[Greenberg Woods]

I have plans to do destruction testing on some blocks of K&G stabilized walnut and maple if you want me to compare yours.

 

[kuraki]

That'd be great. Want me to send you something? I'd be happy to do a piece of walnut as I have lots of it. Just tell me what size would work for what you have planned.

 

[Frank Niro]

It seems that if a scale is done with the cactus juice - say 1/4" thick all is good but when a block is done the penetration is poor in the center. So scales only. And this is with reasonably good equipment as you have.
Frank

 

[kuraki]

It seems that if a scale is done with the cactus juice - say 1/4" thick all is good but when a block is done the penetration is poor in the center. So scales only. And this is with reasonably good equipment as you have.
Frank

So two tests? I have a feeling you are correct when it comes to dense solid woods like the black walnut I have. But I'd be willing to bet this punky maple is all the way through, it was so porous like a sponge, it actually bubbled before I put it under vacuum, just being submerged.

Some are thick enough to split into 2 blocks. I will pick one of those to do the water absorbing test with. First, as a block, see if it takes on water weight overnight. Then I will split it, and test each slab. If it didn't get penetration in the center, that should be exposed and take on water.

 

[rjedoaks]

Sandy from Jacklore knives is fanatical about stabilizing. You may want to check out his utube vids.


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[kuraki]

I'll do that, thanks.

 

[John Andrews]

Sure looks good, kuraki!

 

[REK Knives]

Beautiful work Kuraki, wow!!

 

[kuraki]

I have the results from my water absorbing test.

Before soak: 9.4 oz
After 24 hour soak: 10.3 oz
After 24 hour still air dry: 9.6 oz

So it did retain some water. I'm going to weigh it each day and see if it gets back to 9.4. Then I'll split it and try again.

I'm going to try adding pressure to my process before it gets cold enough I have to pack that stuff away for the winter.

 

[Willie71]

A common misconception is that stabilized wood is waterproof. It isn't. Stabilized wood won't change dimensionally, but it isn't like a cast block.

 

[kuraki]

I guess it depends on the definition of water proof. If properly stabilized the acrylic should have entered the cellular structure of the wood and cured there, while draining from larger pores in the wood during the curing process. Those pores will of course absorb water, but the cellular structure of the wood should not. That's essentially why it won't change dimensionally, because it can't actually absorb. That's why I wanted to see what the water weight was after 24 hours in open air. I haven't tested it, but I'd be willing to bet money, that an unstabilized, <10% water piece of wood would have A) absorbed far more than 1 oz of water and B) shed far less of the total absorbed in only a 24 hour air dry, because the water was able to be taken into the cell structure of the wood.

I mean, nylon isn't "water proof" in that sense. It will absorb water, but in a more similar way to the stabilized wood. It's porous enough to take on water, but not to the detriment of the material itself.

 

[Willie71]

With the cactus juice, the resin impregnates the wood after vacuum while leaving the wood at atmospheric pressure. Most porous woods like the example above will reach full penetration in an hour or so. I did some wenge last year, and it took a week to fully penetrate. Zebrano and Koa took three days, maple about 24h. You can speed this up with pressure, which I will do next batch. The mistake people make is thinking the wood is impregnated during vacuum, and they don't get good penetration because they don't give the resin a chance to get where it needs to go.

 

[JG Custom Metal Works]

I wonder how this compares with K&G? I love being able to do everything in house and saving money, but with some of the stuff customers put their knives through, I've found its best to do things the tried and true way. That being said, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Aside from weighing before and after, I wonder what some more standardized-type testing would be to compare K&G to homebrew stabilization...

 

[kuraki]

With the cactus juice, the resin impregnates the wood after vacuum while leaving the wood at atmospheric pressure. Most porous woods like the example above will reach full penetration in an hour or so. I did some wenge last year, and it took a week to fully penetrate. Zebrano and Koa took three days, maple about 24h. You can speed this up with pressure, which I will do next batch. The mistake people make is thinking the wood is impregnated during vacuum, and they don't get good penetration because they don't give the resin a chance to get where it needs to go.

That's a good point. I'm adding pressure to my recipe on my next batch.

 

[kuraki]

I wonder how this compares with K&G? I love being able to do everything in house and saving money, but with some of the stuff customers put their knives through, I've found its best to do things the tried and true way. That being said, nothing ventured, nothing gained. Aside from weighing before and after, I wonder what some more standardized-type testing would be to compare K&G to homebrew stabilization...

I'm positive K&G's product is superior. How much superior, how much better performance is the question I'm trying to answer. I will never say that my stabilized wood is of equal performance to K&G stabilized wood (because it never will be), and I'll let everyone looking to buy a knife with wood I stabilized know that I did it.

But to me it's like the difference between a forged blade and something milled from monosteel with certs and Peters HT. Which is better performance-wise? The certified monosteel. Without question. Doesn't mean I won't forge blades or that people won't buy them.

Anyone looking at what I do in my shop and post here needs to understand 90% of it is because I'm intellectually curious about making things myself, and if I sell enough knives to pay for that, great. I don't aspire to make anything investment grade. I will take care of my customers with any problem a knife I made them develops, which is one reason very very few have left my shop, because I'm not 100% sure of all my processes.

This forum is very similar to Practical Machinist in a way. People have different perspectives. Some here are true masters at their craft and derive their entire income from it. They have a different perspective than I do. When they say "I'd never sell a knife with homebrew stabilization/mycarta/etc" it's because they understand they're responsible for the product they put out, and they alone get to determine what variables they will control or outsource for their own peace of mind. They're also generally less interested in experimenting with things that are new to me because A) they already have and consider it settled or B) don't care to invest the time and intellectual energy in thinking about it because it isn't something that would have a positive impact on their current business/trade.

The problem is when someone who's not really into anything at all skims a few posts and deduces "Cactus juice is as good as anything" or "Cactus juice is junk because so and so said so." Both are inaccurate conclusions for similar reasons.

So I completely understand why some people completely disregard anything like this as viable. I also know that I'm not breaking any new ground (there's a very good thread here on BF about this very topic from 2005 or so that I can't find at the moment.)

TL;DR
K&G/commercial stabilization is superior to home stabilization. Period. Full stop. The resin they use you likely cannot obtain. They can control their processes better than you can at home. The only question I'm trying to resolve is if home stabilization is good enough for me.

 

[AVigil]

One thing about the internet is people who have not done something will tell you it can not be done.

Considering tru oil, danish oil, boil linseed etc has been used forever to protect wood, I am sure your impregnating process will at least exceed that even if it does not exceed professional process.

 

[Willie71]

That's a good point. I'm adding pressure to my recipe on my next batch.

When the wood stops floating, it's usually fully saturated. I've done pre and post weights and I'm confident with the saturation. When I sell, I make sure I explain the process if I use my own stabilized wood.