Doing some stabilizing

AVigil said:
One thing about the internet is people who have not done something will tell you it can not be done.

Considering tru oil, danish oil, boil linseed etc has been used forever to protect wood, I am sure your impregnating process will at least exceed that :) even if it does not exceed professional process.
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Thank you, that's exactly it.

I just don't want my customers to think that because I stabilized something, they're getting K&G level performance. But they're definitely (in my opinion) getting something that will vastly outperform a typical oil/gunstock finish. As well as the use of woods that would be otherwise useless.
 
AVigil said:
One thing about the internet is people who have not done something will tell you it can not be done.

Considering tru oil, danish oil, boil linseed etc has been used forever to protect wood, I am sure your impregnating process will at least exceed that :) even if it does not exceed professional process.
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I like cactus juice for Zebrano as it stops the warping. It also prevents some of the darkening of the lighter parts of the wood.
 
kuraki said:
I'm positive K&G's product is superior. How much superior, how much better performance is the question I'm trying to answer. I will never say that my stabilized wood is of equal performance to K&G stabilized wood (because it never will be), and I'll let everyone looking to buy a knife with wood I stabilized know that I did it.

But to me it's like the difference between a forged blade and something milled from monosteel with certs and Peters HT. Which is better performance-wise? The certified monosteel. Without question. Doesn't mean I won't forge blades or that people won't buy them.

Anyone looking at what I do in my shop and post here needs to understand 90% of it is because I'm intellectually curious about making things myself, and if I sell enough knives to pay for that, great. I don't aspire to make anything investment grade. I will take care of my customers with any problem a knife I made them develops, which is one reason very very few have left my shop, because I'm not 100% sure of all my processes.

This forum is very similar to Practical Machinist in a way. People have different perspectives. Some here are true masters at their craft and derive their entire income from it. They have a different perspective than I do. When they say "I'd never sell a knife with homebrew stabilization/mycarta/etc" it's because they understand they're responsible for the product they put out, and they alone get to determine what variables they will control or outsource for their own peace of mind. They're also generally less interested in experimenting with things that are new to me because A) they already have and consider it settled or B) don't care to invest the time and intellectual energy in thinking about it because it isn't something that would have a positive impact on their current business/trade.

The problem is when someone who's not really into anything at all skims a few posts and deduces "Cactus juice is as good as anything" or "Cactus juice is junk because so and so said so." Both are inaccurate conclusions for similar reasons.

So I completely understand why some people completely disregard anything like this as viable. I also know that I'm not breaking any new ground (there's a very good thread here on BF about this very topic from 2005 or so that I can't find at the moment.)

TL;DR
K&G/commercial stabilization is superior to home stabilization. Period. Full stop. The resin they use you likely cannot obtain. They can control their processes better than you can at home. The only question I'm trying to resolve is if home stabilization is good enough for me.
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Very well said. I do the same thing. Try things out because I am intellectually curious about them. Some things wind up being worth it...others not.

I looked at stabilizing pretty closely before deciding to just go with K&G. The initial start up costs along with the uncertainty of what I was going to get put me off in the end. I find wood in the forest and buy cheap burls off craigslist and wind up paying about $6/block to have K&G stabilize it. That's not worth messing around with diy stabilization for me. But I completely get why you are trying it out.
Have fun.
Also, water absorption. The blocks I had K&G stabilize pick up water too if I get them wet to look at the grain. Not water proof. But like others are saying here, the fibers don't swell. The water must be going between the fibers. Dries out pretty quickly too.
Randy
 
kuraki said:
I'm positive K&G's product is superior. How much superior, how much better performance is the question I'm trying to answer. I will never say that my stabilized wood is of equal performance to K&G stabilized wood (because it never will be), and I'll let everyone looking to buy a knife with wood I stabilized know that I did it.

But to me it's like the difference between a forged blade and something milled from monosteel with certs and Peters HT. Which is better performance-wise? The certified monosteel. Without question. Doesn't mean I won't forge blades or that people won't buy them.

Anyone looking at what I do in my shop and post here needs to understand 90% of it is because I'm intellectually curious about making things myself, and if I sell enough knives to pay for that, great. I don't aspire to make anything investment grade. I will take care of my customers with any problem a knife I made them develops, which is one reason very very few have left my shop, because I'm not 100% sure of all my processes.

This forum is very similar to Practical Machinist in a way. People have different perspectives. Some here are true masters at their craft and derive their entire income from it. They have a different perspective than I do. When they say "I'd never sell a knife with homebrew stabilization/mycarta/etc" it's because they understand they're responsible for the product they put out, and they alone get to determine what variables they will control or outsource for their own peace of mind. They're also generally less interested in experimenting with things that are new to me because A) they already have and consider it settled or B) don't care to invest the time and intellectual energy in thinking about it because it isn't something that would have a positive impact on their current business/trade.

The problem is when someone who's not really into anything at all skims a few posts and deduces "Cactus juice is as good as anything" or "Cactus juice is junk because so and so said so." Both are inaccurate conclusions for similar reasons.

So I completely understand why some people completely disregard anything like this as viable. I also know that I'm not breaking any new ground (there's a very good thread here on BF about this very topic from 2005 or so that I can't find at the moment.)

TL;DR
K&G/commercial stabilization is superior to home stabilization. Period. Full stop. The resin they use you likely cannot obtain. They can control their processes better than you can at home. The only question I'm trying to resolve is if home stabilization is good enough for me.
Click to expand...

Hopefully you didn't take my comments as me naysaying. Like I said, nothing ventured, nothing gained. I'll be watching this thread because I think what you're doing has value. What K&G does isn't rocket science and it's not like makers haven't tackled harder challenges than figuring out how to stabilize wood. So yeah, I think it's great what you're doing and appreciate it. If it works out I'll likely try to do it myself.

All this being said, I wonder what K&G uses exactly to stabilize wood. I'm sure the technology is somewhat guarded by them but someone has to know... It'd be nice to be able to replicate it on a smaller scale.

Also, in regards to testing the results, is there any standards as far as testing? I'm thinking chucking a certain sized piece into a vise and swinging weight into it until it breaks. Weight could be added until the failure point was reached... hmmm... would probably have to use a new piece each time as it would be weakened after each impact... Then there might also be inconsistencies in regards to grain structure. I'm just thinking out loud here, sorry :stupid: . Whatever the tests would be they'd have to be repeatable of course. It would be cool to see if you could make something that would perform as good as or close to as well as K&G's stuff.

Keep up the good work, I'll be following.
 
JG Custom Metal Works said:
Hopefully you didn't take my comments as me naysaying. Like I said, nothing ventured, nothing gained. I'll be watching this thread because I think what you're doing has value. What K&G does isn't rocket science and it's not like makers haven't tackled harder challenges than figuring out how to stabilize wood. So yeah, I think it's great what you're doing and appreciate it. If it works out I'll likely try to do it myself.

All this being said, I wonder what K&G uses exactly to stabilize wood. I'm sure the technology is somewhat guarded by them but someone has to know... It'd be nice to be able to replicate it on a smaller scale.

Also, in regards to testing the results, is there any standards as far as testing? I'm thinking chucking a certain sized piece into a vise and swinging weight into it until it breaks. Weight could be added until the failure point was reached... hmmm... would probably have to use a new piece each time as it would be weakened after each impact... Then there might also be inconsistencies in regards to grain structure. I'm just thinking out loud here, sorry :stupid: . Whatever the tests would be they'd have to be repeatable of course. It would be cool to see if you could make something that would perform as good as or close to as well as K&G's stuff.

Keep up the good work, I'll be following.
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Cactus juice is the same base chemical stock that K&G uses, but they just use a much higher quality grade of it.
 
JG- I didn't. Just had that boiling around in my head and wanted to get it out.
 
And i dont know about K&G, but ive talked to WSSI and other professional stabilizers and they do theirs at around 3-5000psi and ive never seen a home stabilizing set up that does anywhere near that
 
CWendling said:
And i dont know about K&G, but ive talked to WSSI and other professional stabilizers and they do theirs at around 3-5000psi and ive never seen a home stabilizing set up that does anywhere near that
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Yup, that's why they can do almost any wood, while we are much more limited at home. As oil and density goes up, success at home goes down.
 
kuraki said:
I'll have to look in to getting a scuba compressor. :cool:
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I have one. It's an Omega Air Supply station and it fills to 4500psi. You can get them at Air Rifles of Airizona or Precision Airguns for around $1400. I use it for filling high-powered PCP air-rifles. Higher end compressors are easily in the $4000-$5000+ range.

Depending on the amount of air you would need for the process you might be able to use a carbon fiber air tank and just get it refilled/hydro'd at your local firehouse or paintball shop. I think the used ones can be had on eBay for $100 or so and they are rated for 4500psi usually. I snagged up an Omega tank with the compressor but it was $700 for a new 100cuft one. High pressure air sources aren't cheap but once you have them you're gtg.

Oh, one last option might be a high pressure air hand pump. Air Venturi makes an affordable($200) one that goes up to 4500psi. If you needed the air to be steadily flowing into the system that might be an option. It's the G6. It's what I used before getting my tank/compressor and it works well.

I'm thinking, at those pressures, your main concern will be the container holding the wood and solution. I read that the energy released from a 4500psi 100cuft carbon fiber wrapped tank exploding is equal to TWO M67 hand grenades going off. :eek:
 
I was kidding. I work at a metal fabricator. Some of our stuff is tested at 550psi in an explosion proof room. I'm not going to build a chamber for that at home ;)
 
I have stabilized a lot of wooden pen blanks with a vacuum pump and Cactus Juice. I actually recently bought a quality 'toaster oven' for baking the wood once Cactus Juiced to cure it in my shop. I have also done a lot of knife scales--some wood does simply take longer than others--the 'tank' I got was from Exotic Blanks, Ed the owner there is a very helpful fellow and he offers a tank/vacuum pump setup he has sourced himself--I think it's called the Beast--it's the larger one he sells. I found that oily exotic woods take a good bit longer to get to the point Willie talks about, where the piece of wood stays submerged when you leave it in the stabilizing solution after you remove the vacuum and any weight you may have had holding it under the solution. I will tell you that I spoke to K&G many years ago, and they simply said what they used was 'very similar' to a product like Cactus Juice, but they used much higher pressures and very precise temperature control when final curing the wood they work on. With their industrial level equipment and their ability to do it quickly and charge a very reasonable price for it, it's a factor in determining whether or not one should invest in the gear needed to do stabilizing their self....I like the ability to stabilize a small quantity of wood on my schedule, and I have found good results doing it. YMMV, but for me it's been a good investment
 
Many exotics simply don't take stabilizing. There is a general trend that harder, oily woods don't need it but there are exeptions.

Woods that I know DO NOT take stabilizing:

desert ironwood,
Cocobolo
African blackwood
Kingwood
Rosewood burl

Many other exotics are hit or miss or may simply get minimal benifit. I'm happy to try to help with any questions.
 
I'll just mention here, I've gotten K&G stabilized wood blocks, no more than 1.25" thick, with big voids in the center... there are certain woods that I won't buy from them, or if I do, have them cut it into scales. That way a big defect will be found by them, not me.
They may have the best setup, but it's not infallible. Maybe there's just always going to be a block that won't fill up completely, now and then.
 
Yep I imagine that's the case with any natural materials. Which is why it made me cringe to see a two ton hoist hanging from a wood beam at an industrial auction I walked through last year. I don't care what the load calc says, hah.
 
kuraki said:
Yep I imagine that's the case with any natural materials. Which is why it made me cringe to see a two ton hoist hanging from a wood beam at an industrial auction I walked through last year. I don't care what the load calc says, hah.
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Good GOD, if that wasn't a laminated wood beam, someone is just waiting for when not an if of that setup failing---ugggh!
 
Here's a piece I finished tonight. Really like this one.

fy013d.jpg
 
There is alot going on in that one, it looks awesome , have you done any multi color dyed pieces? Just wondering how long you apply the dyes for.
 
I have some in the pot right now that have been dyed twice. They dye is mixed into the resin so the amount of time is however long you have them immersed in resin. Usually a few hours under vacuum then another 24 under pressure is what I'm doing now.
 
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