Don't Regret the Snark

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CCMI said:
Are the Bussekin heat-treating "recipes" actually protected as intellectual property? Or are they just kept a secret like Bush's Baked Beans?

Edit: or maybe a better questions would be are any makers heat-treating considered intellectual property?
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Im not sure if its protected but the unicorn piss they quench it in is hard to find.
 
Awe you know you love em :D

TMHunt said:
Swamp rat isnt going to tell you anything because they dont want you to know how easy it is to make a cheesy sales pitch.
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That may be so, but cheesy sales pitch or not their SR101 is no joke. Like i said many times i dont care what the name/brand/company is when buying a knife, im about finding the best of the best in my uses regardless of the companies name or the price of the knife and 52100 is an amazing steel period. My competition chopper from Dan Keffeler is made of 52100, Jose Diaz's cane toad comp knife is also 52100. Pretty much most the comp knives are 52100 or CPM M4. They are not using these steels over all the other steels for no reason at all i wouldnt think. They are tough steels that hold a wicked edge.

Now weather or not SR101 is better than regular, properly heat treated, 52100 is yet to be seen by me, but i am testing it out myself and so far i cant notice any difference at all honestly, but even if there is no difference what so ever id still be completely happy because 52100 is still some amazing stuff and its hard to find any knife maker or company selling knives made of 52100 at a price like swamp rat does especially that look anywhere near as good (subjective)... And thats not even considering the fact they challenge you to use it as hard as you possibly can and they will still warranty it. Get it dirty, change your mind about the color blade coating you want or decide you prefer G10 over Micarta and its only 20-30 for a re-coat or handle swap.. I have done this myself several times. Cheesy sales pitches are fine with me when they can actually walk the talk.
 
Bad part is when I broke my 1311 it took 3 months to get it replaced.
 
CCMI said:
Edit: or maybe a better questions would be are any makers heat-treating considered intellectual property?
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I'm not a lawyer, but I suppose it's possible... but unlikely. I think to trademark a process like that you have to show that it's markedly different from what's already being done, and that would get pretty tricky. Simply tempering a piece longer or using a different austenizing temperature (for example) wouldn't count.

There's a lot of hocus-pocus and outright bull$hit floating around out there about steel and HT, most of which comes not from the metallurgists but from the marketing guys...

I decided a long time ago that I wasn't going to make up silly new names for the steel I use or make my processes a "big trade secret". I find that sort of thing offensive, an insult to the intelligence of my clients, and more than a little shady.
 
CCMI said:
Are the Bussekin heat-treating "recipes" actually protected as intellectual property? Or are they just kept a secret like Bush's Baked Beans?

Edit: or maybe a better questions would be are any makers heat-treating considered intellectual property?
Click to expand...

As far as makers go, Id say my answer is no. I had to learn what I know somewhere. So, for me to label it as my own "intellectual property" would be about as dumb as somebody trademarking a hole..........Whoops! never mind.

As far as propriatery heat treating processes, and magically turning one steel into another. Plain and simple sales pitch. Think about it. Why is he so secretive about his processes. why does he not allow shop tours. Its not that hes trying to keep secrets because his processes are so far advanced from the rest of the world. its exactly the opposite. Dont you think from someone that trademarked a hole he wouldnt be the first to trademark these magical processes he claims to have. Usually in my exeperience. If a company is hiding things from its consumer, It never for good reason.
 
TMHunt said:
Pretty much. but you forgot the part where all of the engineers are setting around sipping whiskey laughing there a$$ off saying "You think anybody is actually gonna believe this sh!t!" :D
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Id love that job!

james terrio said:
Carburizing, case-hardening etc are less-expensive substitutes for fully heat-treating steel. They don't change the underlying steel, they simply leave a thin harder layer on top.
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Is it possible to to do the heat treat before or after the "FN"? It looks like it makes that top layer harder than normal heat treating does, and protects it from oxidation, if thats so, and you could heat treat before or after you might could end up with some really good stuff. Im not saying use "FN" instead, i wouldnt want an oreo steel thats soft in the middle, but if you could increase hardness and reduce oxidation on the top layer PLUS heat treat regularly it might be great.

Again im sure if it were that easy there would likely be hundreds of places already doing this. I was just letting my mind wonder a bit is all.
 
Psyop said:
Im not sure if its protected but the unicorn piss they quench it in is hard to find.
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LMAO!! :D

Psyop said:
Bad part is when I broke my 1311 it took 3 months to get it replaced.
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Yea, that sucks. The wait does get long sometimes, i been waiting over 17 weeks now for 3 knives. But i have also been quoted 6 months up to a year for other knives from custom makers... even when its one of their usual models. SO to me a wait just indicates that the person/company has steady business, which to me is a good thing. But i am also an impatient person so i do bitch and complain about the wait myself.
 
worldwood said:
Again im sure if it were that easy there would likely be hundreds of places already doing this. I was just letting my mind wonder a bit is all.
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You pretty much just answered your own question :)

There are processes that can work like you're thinking (DLC springs to mind), but it's way, way less expensive and nearly as effective to just put ceramic powder coat/epoxy/teflon etc. on normally-hardened blades.
 
Psyop said:
Its the rainbows and unicorns
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I stand naked under a full moon facing due North and use panther pee and the blood of red-headed virgins to give my blades super-duper strength and cuttingness. There, my secret is out!! :D
 
Hey WW, Im not trying to pick on you but I would like for you answer this for me because im curious not because Im trying to be a ass. but you say your on a quest for the best irregaurdless of the name on the blade. I respect that from you I really do, But how do you know what your getting if the manufacturer will not tell you how the heat treat is done, or presents his customers with misleading smoke and mirror "alternative" names for already existing steel. Like I said before. usually if somebody is hiding something, its not for any good reason.
 
Thanks for the answers guys, that's pretty much what I figured it would be.

The marketing heads want people to think, "Gee this is a great knife. I like other designs too, but I can't get steel XYZ from any other maker". Most people won't realize that while heat-treating definitely matters, it's really just 1095, 52100, etc..
 
CCMI said:
Thanks for the answers guys, that's pretty much what I figured it would be.

The marketing heads want people to think, "Gee this is a great knife. I like other designs too, but I can't get steel XYZ from any other maker". Most people won't realize that while heat-treating definitely matters, it's really just 1095, 52100, etc..
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Exactly, again as Terrio stated. such changes are usually made by marketing execs. not metalurgist. There are however chemical changes made to steel from the steel manufactures that could warrent a name change, but keep in mind, that these changes arent made with the end product in mind. its made for easier processes in the steels journey to becomeing whatever its gonna be, for example better machinabilty, easier heat treat, corrosion resistance etc.
 
TMHunt said:
Hey WW, Im not trying to pick on you but I would like for you answer this for me because im curious not because Im trying to be a ass. but you say your on a quest for the best irregaurdless of the name on the blade. I respect that from you I really do, But how do you know what your getting if the manufacturer will not tell you how the heat treat is done, or presents his customers with misleading smoke and mirror "alternative" names for already existing steel. Like I said before. usually if somebody is hiding something, its not for any good reason.
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No offense taken at all bud, its a great question. And I agree that normally if a company is hiding stuff from the customer its normally bad, i agree to that.

But to answer your question, I test the knives myself with a buddy, like i said im after the best of the best in MY uses, so just because i prefer it doesnt mean others will for their uses. But i have tested SR101 extensively against steels from multiple categories including kabar's 1095CV, rowens 1095, s30v, S35VN, 5160, and D2, these are all i remember at the moment but SR101 was the clear winner for us. i have a buddy with a nice collection as well, and together we put all our knives against each other to find the best... FOR US, again this is subjective and personal opinion based on our uses and wants.

I cant always go off what i read, the boards will say INFI is stronger than SR101, but i disagree and argue that SR101 holds its edge better, yet others disagree, I have read that S30V is still better than S35VN, and i disagree, so im not trying to define or point out the the best steel in the world period, simply what works best for me and what i personally prefer.... well me and my buddy anyway.

We dont test professionally or use scientific methods or any of that, we cut, chop, and baton the same material with each steel, put into groups of FFg and saber and V grind and convexed edges, then we see how long they stay sharp, if any damage is done and how quick they get the job done.

Id prefer to know the exacts with any knife i get, but that wont stop me from wanting what works best for me, i might not know the HT details of SR101 but i know it has out-performed every steel we have ran thru our test.

I dont just go off what ANY companies say, Jerry makes a point to say that SR101 is better than 3V, 3V is just more resistant to rust and INFI is better than them both, i dont agree INFI is better than SR101... And i wont agree that SR101 is better than 3V until i test it myself.

But again my results are not professional scientific data for the world to go off of, simply for me to find what i personally think is the best for my applications.
 
james terrio said:
I stand naked under a full moon facing due North and use panther pee and the blood of red-headed virgins to give my blades super-duper strength and cuttingness. There, my secret is out!! :D
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Maybe the naked part of your formula scares the steel into becoming hard. :D
 
At the end of the day, the application is pretty darn important. I don't use a whole lot of 52100 because most of my blades are 2 or 3 feet long, and 52100 isn't well suited for those applications. Each steel has its niche. I personally think it's hard to beat properly done 3V for tough use though.
 
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