Double-Ended Jack vs. Half Stockman vs. (my brain):

[pertinux]

Ken Coats brings up valid points.

In which I suddenly realize who "kc custom" is.

This is a great thread. Lots of good info. My thanks to all who are participating.

Methinks you may have spoken too soon.

Many refer to this knife as a "half" congress. I believe it to be a "pen" knife due to its size. 3 3/8

I understand (now!) that the above is a pen knife, and why. However, I wouldn't have thought to look for "pen knife" to find a piece with that frame and blade choice, nor is that the first (or even third) possibly identifying feature that comes to mind when viewing it. Out of curiosity, what do/did you call this knife-- not as a matter of the narrower pattern identification we're engaged with here, but as your working/listing title?

This thread brings back some unwieldy memories. I once started a thread to be used as a reference for knife patterns, and got bogged down in confusing name-calling (the knives, not each other), and stepped aside for a while. I have been looking for the courage to go at it again, so maybe before I buy the farm . . . . .

There are at least two threads of yours that I can think of that fit this description, that I enjoyed finding very much. I would love to see a continuation! In many ways, apprehending some of this nomenclature strikes me as as similar challenge to learning spelling and language rules-- once you start listing them, there suddenly appear to be more exceptions than supporting examples! Yet, one has to start somewhere.

At the slightest suggestion, Sarah, I will delete this post...

Oh, this one was very fine; please leave it as is. Your next one, on the other hand? That, too, should stand, but only as a warning to others.

Here are two patterns, that can boggle the most stable mind, The so-called "Half Stockman" (no such thing, IMO), and the - wait for it:
Sleeveboard Congress Sheepfoot Jack (indeed such a thing!!).

Nuh-uh, no such thing.

The envelope's nice, anyway.

Who wants to see my premium demi-cannitler Jr?

Yes! Post 'er on up.

What?

(Meanwhile, y'all can keep encouraging Elliott at your own risk. Don't say I didn't warn you.

)

~ P.

 

[TLARbb]

If I were younger this would have had me rolling on the floor laughing. I am, however, sitting at my desk laughing. :thumbup:

Especially the disclaimer.

Who wants to see my premium demi-cannitler Jr?

Yep, post 'er up!! Don't forget to introduce it with "Lookey here!".

Ed J

 

[CoffeeCat2112]

Yep, post 'er up!! Don't forget to introduce it with "Lookey here!".

Ed J

Sorry, I lent it to a friend. All I can offer is a Grandaddy Half Scout's toenail.

 

[timberweasel]

Sorry, I lent it to a friend. All I can offer is a Grandaddy Half Scout's toenail.

I brayed like a donkey when I read that! Thanks for the laugh! :thumbup:

-Brett

 

[rockgolfer]

I understand (now!) that the above is a pen knife, and why. However, I wouldn't have thought to look for "pen knife" to find a piece with that frame and blade choice, nor is that the first (or even third) possibly identifying feature that comes to mind when viewing it. Out of curiosity, what do/did you call this knife-- not as a matter of the narrower pattern identification we're engaged with here, but as your working/listing title?


~ P.

The more I think about this subject the more frustrated I get. I understand the traditional nature of these knives and why a lot of us are drawn to them and the history. I think most of the original patterns have been dissected, re-arranged, re-sized and altered over the years that each original pattern could have its own book made on its variants. I know for purists sake that what the Ken's and others have laid out are historically accurate, and that is important in and of itself. I guess I just dont see anything wrong with straying from the pure name in the sake of being able to name and search individual knives. The pen knife that P is talking about above is a perfect example. I dont think calling it a pen knife gives it or its maker any credit. In searching for that knife and simply using pen knife as the keyword, I could only imagine the amount of days I would spend looking through photos to find that particular, unusual version. Sure its in the pen knife family and for cataloging that makes a lot of sense(because thats what it is) but ignoring the frame and other unique design features seams wrong. Further saying that if it had been 3.5" long would classify it as a jack knife still presents the same issues. Why can the names not be approached in a family way? That half congress is a unique knife and member of the pen family? Just seems more complete to me. I do not know where the "half" designation came from but it does seam fitting in many ways. Regardless we will all call them what we want, learning the history is fun and enjoyable to me.

 

[pertinux]

Who wants to see my premium demi-cannitler Jr?

All I can offer is a Grandaddy Half Scout's toenail.

Still laughing.

Ken, if you wouldn't mind, I'm still interested in your "official" name/listing for this knife:

Many refer to this knife as a "half" congress. I believe it to be a "pen" knife due to its size. 3 3/8

I understand (now!) that the above is a pen knife, and why. However, I wouldn't have thought to look for "pen knife" to find a piece with that frame and blade choice, nor is that the first (or even third) possibly identifying feature that comes to mind when viewing it. Out of curiosity, what do/did you call this knife-- not as a matter of the narrower pattern identification we're engaged with here, but as your working/listing title?

(If you'd rather send me a PM, that's fine-- I'm just still curious.)

~ P.

 

[screened porch]

I usually call them all pocket knives, to forestall wrangles like this.

 

[ken erickson]

Ken, if you wouldn't mind, I'm still interested in your "official" name/listing for this knife:

(If you'd rather send me a PM, that's fine-- I'm just still curious.)

~ P.

When I listed this knife on the for sale forum by maker I had listed it as a "Half Congress" . My own knife vocabulary has evolved and has been refined since that posting.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ngress(sold)?highlight=erickson+half+congress

I would, if listed today, list it as a pen knife.

 

[ptradeco]

When I listed this knife on the for sale forum by maker I had listed it as a "Half Congress" . My own knife vocabulary has evolved and has been refined since that posting. ... I would, if listed today, list it as a pen knife.

Case, at least in older literature and references speaks of their 3" a #69 and 3 1/4" a #68 as Pen knives. They do sometimes say, "Sometimes referred to as 1/2 Congress or Small Congress." They then drop Pen in the description of 2 blades versions for larger sizes.

 

[waynorth]

Thanks for the Case reference, Brad. It reminds me that half of the nomenclature problem can be wholly laid at the marketing departments' various feet!!



Oh look! There's a Half-Harnessjack!

 

[ea42]

LOL Charlie that's priceless! Here's what I visualize when I see the term "half stockman", what else could it be if a stockman's got three blades?

[/IMG]

Eric

 

[waynorth]

ROTFLMAO!!!! (as my kids used to text). Perfect example, Eric!!

 

[ptradeco]

Thanks for the Case reference, Brad. It reminds me that half of the nomenclature problem can be wholly laid at the marketing departments' various feet!! ......

And as I continue to look into patterns I am coming to the belief that knife companies may have been the original marketeers. Reminds of that Whittler vs. Cattle question I posed to you:


What just about everybody calls a (Jumbo) Sleeveboard Whittler:

Remington decided to call a Fancy Cattle Knife with Three Backsprings! Solely based on the blade profiles and which spring they interacted with! As my Grandkids say, "REALLY"

 

[waynorth]

And we used to say "NO SHIP!" or something like that. Still do when I think about it!

Brad, it is hard to call your catalog example a Cattle knife, but I agree it is appropriate even though it re-shapes the rules a bit.

I'd like to see a knife called a "Premier" Cattle knife, the serpentine precursor of the slimmer pattern Stockman.

 

[pertinux]

Thanks for the Case reference, Brad. It reminds me that half of the nomenclature problem can be wholly laid at the marketing departments' various feet!!

So it is seeming. (Thanks for the references, Brad.)

Oh look! There's a Half-Harnessjack!

Ha! But yes, that's the incomparable Halfjack.

When I listed this knife on the for sale forum by maker I had listed it as a "Half Congress" . My own knife vocabulary has evolved and has been refined since that posting.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ngress(sold)?highlight=erickson+half+congress

I would, if listed today, list it as a pen knife.

Thanks, Ken. I have to admit, I chuckled over the description, given the clarity that has come through this thread. I appreciate the link to your original listing as well. When it comes right down to it, an excellent picture (or series thereof) really is worth thousands words. Might even calm Charlie for a while, here and there.

~ P.

 

[waynorth]

Wudda ya mean calm Charlie??? I'm calm!! I'm calm!!
I'm always Calm!! Very, very calm!!!

:yawn:ZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[smiling-knife]

I agree with Pertinux, this pattern business is a 'mind' field. Ken, while I agree that your small knife is a penknife, this catalogue page identifies a similar knife as a congress. There are both 3.5 and 3 inch versions with the same name.

I also have this penknife. It's 3.75 inches closed. I think I saw the name Jumbo penknife somewhere. The 1905 A & N advertisement does not provide definitive information on the pattern name.

The old catalogues simply list one blade, two blade, three blade etc knives. There were only a few specialist patterns in days of yor; e.g., Sportsman's, Champagne, Congress, Ladies', Horticulture.

 

[deskil]

The tang of this 3 7/8" double end jack knife is stamped 06247PEN by Case. Nowhere are exceptions to the rule more prevalent than in knife nomenclature. We can call 'em what we want and so can the makers.

 

[waynorth]

I am glad this thread got bumped! I read the whole thing and laughed all over again - the best medicine!!

Don't ask, just send the copies!
I take the whole responsibility for this half-witted statement!!

Am I a half wit for asking if I can help someone?not sure where you're coming from [/QUOTE}

I posted this quote above in response to Meako's post #30.
Poorly worded at best, John, I was referring to my own statement as half-witted,
"Don't ask, just send the copies!"
sort of keeping with the "half" theme that evolved.
I was not-so-tacitly advising you to go for it and darn the torpedoes!
Background - Bernie no longer owns the copyright, and I hold the current owners in great contempt.
I apologize if my foolishness sounded insulting; I only have great respect for you my friend! Sorry I didn't straighten this out in January of last year!!
Forgive me!

 

[Old & In The Way]

Lot's of good information and interesting discussion in this thread, but after reading through it, I feel a bit like this guy...