Down or synthetic bag?

Q

Quirt

Joined
Oct 10, 2005
Messages
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I've been a dedicated synthetic sleeping bag user my entire life. I currently have two high end synthetic bags one is a zero bag and the other a summer bag.

I have no complaints about either bag...they can stay in the compression sack without compromising insulation, work well when wet (I live in a wet climate region), and many other attributes. I like them and they work. Plus they are rugged bags that have been through the ringer and still hold up.

B U T, they are bulky and heavy and either one takes up an enourmous about of valuable space in my WASP long-term BOB. I'm also getting older and am not able to endure training with as much weight as I did 30 years ago.

I train and practice wilderness survival during all four seasons, I attend courses, and train in survival for a potentially hostile environment. I need gear that is hard core and rugged. I need gear that if things turn sour will last. I also commit a lot of time and $$ for classes and can't afford to have gear fail in the middle of a class.

With this mission and these objectives in mind...since I always carry a high end bivi bag anyway I am seriously considering investing in a 3 season down bag for everything but winter. The bag I'm considering is the Big Agnes Zirkel that can accomdate an air mattress that slips into a built in cover that prevents the bag and mattress from seperating. (this is a nice to have feature!)

Together the two collapse into one small football size stuff sack and together weight considerably less than my synthetic bag and supplimental Thermalrest pad....I'd save a lot of weight, cut out one seperate bulky item (ground pad) and have one smaller item (bag and pad together) rather than two items in my WASP.

The only negative I can think of is if my down bag gets wet or the long term durabilty of down in an environment where I don't have the luxury of going home if my gear fails. With synthetic I can patch the bag if it rips and the material is less likely to scatter to the four corners if compromised.

I also realize once I get home I cannot keep the bag under compression so if SHTF I'd need to have the synthetic bag in my WASP pack to "grap and go."

Somebody either talk me into or out of my novel notion of considering a down bag! Lots of Mountaineering and serious backpacker types use down...but my mission is a wee bit different and I'm wondering what your experiences and insights are...
 
I like down, and its my camping/backpacking bag.. but it stays in the closet, waiting for the planned trips, or any time i have 5 minutes to stuff it and get out if SHTF.. if i dont have the 5 minutes for that task, i also have an old rectangular ll bean bag in my car- MUCH bulkier, heavier, but like you, i dont have to worry about it in the least.

I should think that for the courses, down would do well.. but for a BOB, synthetic would probably be preferable.

..just my opinions, I'm less than professional at this stuff!
 
Quirt,

Have you tried a synthetic bag with primloft? It compresses better than other synthetics and retains its insulation when wet. Great stuff in sleeping bags and snow suits! I have -12 rated bag from MEC, primloft. Its been going strong for 8 years and is still as good as new.
 
Down bags are a bit more high-maintenance, so would probably be less suited for a BOB-type use than synthetic. They're great for backpacking and mountaineering because of the weight, but are more delicate than their synthetic counterparts, and are less easily field-washed.
 
It is funny but seems like my first post in this forum is going to be about sleeping bags instead of knives. Happens to be that I am a climber (rock, ice, snow... everything goes).

I just want to point out that talking about insulation... down bags are definitely better than synthetic bags. That turns the other way arround when wet of course.

About maintenance I got to say that down is going to last you a lifetime because you can wash it as many times as you want as long as you use some soap like Nikwax (it doesn't damage down) while synthetic bags will definitely loose loft everytime you wash it. Plus they loose loft everytime you put them in the compression bag (and don't even think about storing them compressed, you will ruin the bag in just a season or two).

That said I will recommend you a syntetic summer bag for wet conditions matted with a Thermarest eva mattres an sleep with all your clothes on but the waterproof shells. I don't carry air mattresses, they insulate way worse and if they get punctured you will find yourself sleeping in the ground, think about crampons, ice axes and ice screws. If you are going to be out just one or two days you and don't expect to get wet, stick to a summer down bag, that will help you save some pounds on your pack.

I hope that helps.
Mikel

BTW I am from Spain (sorry for my not-so-perfect English) and I have been reading you guys for a week or so.
 
Tough ?. I own several of both and can't pick. Winter its down as its all frozen with little moisture.

There is a hybrid out there. Synthetic on bottom down on top, don't own one of those.

Skam
 
Hey Guys...

Mikel..

Welcome to the mighty BF.com

Your english is very good,, no worries....

I have 4 Canadian army down bags that I've had for almost 30 years.. They still work perfectly,, and are my Go to Bags, however I know their limitations..

It's been so long since I've used a synthetic bag I can't even remember..
Oh yes,, I did have one at summer camp on a hiking trip and remember the bloody thing constantly falling off and Very large.

since then I've never really used anything but down,, so I have no idea...

The bag you are talking about sounds nice,,and having the non slip feature sounds like heaven....

I'd say go for it,, just remember your limitations.. A good waterproof bivy will help, but keep in mind the condensation factor...

Have had several friends go through cold nights because of condensation in their bags...

ttyle

Eric
O/ST
 
Down is great as long as conditions allow it to perform. I had a 30º down bag, but after two careful washings with proper special soap, the down began to clump. The bag has now been relegated to being a basement blanket. It was a good bag while it lasted.

My very first serious sleeping bag was a The North Face Snowshoe (0º) that I got when I was in college. It has the original Polargaurd insulation. 17+ years years, it is still going plenty strong. The loft is still there, even though for the first four years it was stored in it's own stuff sack. The bag has never quite seen 0º, but it has kept me comfortable down into the teens.

About 10 years ago I purchased a TNF Cat's Meow for 3-season camping. Another synthetic bag, this one has held up very well, too.

Both bags have seen their share of moisture. Not soaked, but condensation, a leaky tent, etc. Both bags performed fine while wet, dried quickly, and suffered no damage from being wet.

As far as warmth in the bag, I have personally found that the less clothes I have on in the bag, the warmer I am. I realized this on a trip where we had 20º temps overnight, and I was cold. I went to bed wearing long underwear top and bottoms, a t-shirt, socks, pants, and a fleece jacket. That night I didn't sleep much, as I was always cold. The next night, I wore my long underwear top and bottom only, no socks. I actually had to open the bag to regualte the temp inside. By wearing less clothes, my body heat radiated off my body and was captured in the bags insulation. This have been my practice ever since, and I haven't had a coold night since.

Another note on warmth: If I'm in a situation where my bag just doesn't seem warm enough, I add a layer of something to the outside of the bag. A cheapo emergency blanket, bivi bag, poncho, poncho liner, plastic sheet, shell jacket, whatever,anything can help when you need just a few extra degrees for a comfortable rest. Remember, using a non-permeable extra layer (like a space blanket) outside your bag will cause condensation to form, and your bag will get wet. Synthetic bag? No problem.


To Quirt, by all means, get a down bag and try it out. See how it works for you. I don't have to tell you to try in under controlled circumstances, blah, blah, blah. But as you mentioned, the down bags really have an advantage in the warmth-to-weight ratio and compactibility over the synthetic bags. I use compression sacks for my bags, and my Cat's Meow can scrunch down to about 9"x8" if I work at it.
 
Quirt said:
I also realize once I get home I cannot keep the bag under compression so if SHTF I'd need to have the synthetic bag in my WASP pack to "grap and go."
Click to expand...

In my experience you shouldn't keep ANY sleeping bag stored under compression.

For the "I gotta get out of Dodge quick" scenario, I keep my sleeping bag (USGI MSS) hanging in the closet, I keep the compression sack in my ruck, and have the cargo straps already on the pack/frame (ALICE pack). I can just roll the bag real quick, strap it to the ruck, and then compress it for travel once I've cleared whatever the immediate threat is. Since I keep it snapped into the Gore-Tex bivy, I don't worry about it being exposed to rain or whatever when strapped to the ruck.

That way it isn't stored compressed, but can be moved quickly.
 
wow, I was just researching this topic! thanks guys. I was wondering some of the same things, thanks Quirt, and I've been looking at down and the syth; the north face line and especially the newer Polarguard delta stuff. They seem great. I was wondering why sleeping pads are so expensive? (don't mean to hijack your thread Quirt, I hope it helps) they cost as much as the bags that I have! A friend suggested their like razor cartridges, a rip-off!
 
Dantor, I'll recommend looking for factory seconds, clearance/closeout/discontinued models, and non-name brand sleeping pad models.

We have two identical Therma-Rest pads in our stable; one is a regular production unit and the other is a factory second. Other than the colors being a little different on the factory second's label, both pads look and function the same. Same materials and all.

To try something different, I picked up a discontinued Insul Mat Max-Thermo inflatable pad this past spring fro Sierra Trading Post for cheap, about $30. Seems like a nice pad, but I haven't used it in the field yet (I've been selecting my good 'ol tried and true items this summer).

My buddy uses a self-infalting pad that he found on sale at Cabela's. It is a Cabela's brand, and I'm not sure who the actual manufacturer is. He likes it, and thus far it has proven to be solidly made, comfortable, and reliable.

I have a first generation Z-Rest pad that I use as my defaultpacking pad. That unit may have been a factory 2nd, too. Although it may be a little bulky, it is light and I think it has a decent cost/comfort ratio.

Good luck with your pad search! Have fun out there!
 
Don't store your synthetic compressed. It needs the air.
I have always been afraid of getting my down bag wet on kayak and canoe trips, or even in bad weather. But if you pack properly, very, very carefully, and exercise good care in camp, ( ventilate the tent, keep the floor dry, use a vestibule for wet gear) wetted out down won't be a problem. (I carry an emergency liner in case). But wet down, especially seawater, is a nightmare in a cold climate.
I've used the integral designs primaloft bag (renaissance) but it really doesn't compare to high end down (800+ loft) with a good shell (I still like my old dryloft feathered friends). the difference in compression and therefore size (and weight) is huge, which is important on a long trip in a kayak.

I use two drybags, one inside the other, even if it then goes in a "waterproof" pack because it's suprisingly easy to get tears when loading & unloading on rocks etc, and a wet bag in the wrong conditions can help kill you
 
I have one of each, but I use the 40 degree synthetic one the most. the 25 degree down is overkill for most of my camping.
 
There are definitely advantages to both down and synthetic bags. Although I am not an old man, I have been backpacking most of my life. I have owned around 24 sleeping bags that I have bought and sold over the years in an effort to find the perfect bag. Sythetic bags are great because they are cheaper and they do insulated when wet. However, they are heavier, less compressible, have lower loft, and will not last a lifetime even if cared for properly. I was a staunch synthetic bag user for years and years. I finally got tired of the bulk and wait. My solution was to buy a down bag with a waterproof/breathable shell fabric, the Marmot Helium EQ. Now it isn't totally waterproof because it isn't seam sealed, but the water rolls right off. I have been in storms and have had condensation drip all over the bag and have not had problems with the down clumping. The downside is, it is expensive. But, I don't plan on needing to buy a new bag for a long time. I think it is the best of both worlds. As far as storing them compressed, that significantly reduces the loft and life of any sleeping bag. Synthetic bags are especially harmed by prolonged compression due to the nature of the insulation fibers and rebound less and less with each compression. Down is damaged as well, but is much more resilient than any synthetic insulation Hope this helps.
 
Moisture from the outside or more often from the inside makes down a poor choice for me. I've used "Wiggy's" synthetic bags for years because they can be machine washed and are made for hard use in a variety of conditions. No problems have been found by storing them in a compression sack.
 
Your body does its best to maintain high humidity next to your skin. That means in "dry" weather (hot or cold) you perspire. Depending on how much you perpire, you may detect liquid or not ("insensate perspiration"), but you are perspiring.

When you are inside insulation in cold weather (and all insulation is insulation, whether you call it "clothes" or a "sleeping bag") the warm, moist air you are creating migrates outwards until it reaches dew point. It then becomes a liquid. If it's cold enough, that liquid is forming inside a sleeping bag. Even colder, and it may form ice.

Down absorbs liquid readily and dries slowly. As it absorbs mositure, it colapses = less loft/insualtion. In experiments, down bags lose loft steadily, over time UNLESS you have dry conditions to dry them out. (Over time, even ice will evaporate if it's dry - as in severe cold. Do you have the time?) hikeeba is 100% right. DO YOU HAVE THOSE CONDITIONS?

If not, you need synthetic because high-quality synthetic does not absorb liquids into the fibers and, in fact, wicks them out unless the liquid freezes.

25 degree bags now come in under three pounds.

I loved my down bag -- in Californa -- nine months of the year. I have used it twice since I moved to Ohio.

STORAGE

Every single manufacturer of synthetic insulations and every manufacturer of synthetic-insulated bags I know of strongly suggests that the bags be stored in an uncompressed condition. Synthetics WILL cold-form over time if left compressed. Think of a nylon spatula bent over double and released. Now bend it double, stack some bricks on it and come back in a month. What do you expect the result will be? If you have no idea, try it.

Store your synthetic bag by hanging or in a large bag.

ED: And if any manufacturer or dealer suggests storage in a compression sack, recall how they make their money.
 
Thomas hit the nail on the head. I have a couple of very nice bags of each kind, and find myself very rarely using the down bags. Most of the places I go are just too wet.

There are some manufacturers out there that make some very nice, relatively small and lightweight synthetic bags. Slumberjack makes some that are lined with Merino wool, which will wick the moisture away from your body and do an excellent job at regulating temperature. Snugpak makes some that have metal (silver?) woven into the fabric to help reflect heat back at your body so they can get away with less insulation. There are also combo bags out there, with both down and synthetic in the bag. I have one of these, and find it works great. The synthetic is there in case it gets wet, and the down makes it relatively light and compressible. Great bag if you are in an area with varying conditions.
 
If you do choose a down bag, use of a proper liner, silk or otherwise, and proper ventilation are important so you don't wet it out from the inside with your perspiration, and you will perspire. It adds up until you can really air & dry out the bag.
 
Quirt - I have owned and used both synthetic and down bags. In camping, backpacking and mountaineering adventures. Each has qualities that make it suitable for different situations.

When down is wet, you're sleeping in a nylon bag only. When synthetic is wet, you still have some insulation to rely on. In either case, you will be miserable if you are relying on the full insulation value when the bag is wet.

Since the main purpose of the bag is for your BOB, then I think you should go with synthetic. Down is much lighter, smaller package, but does have serious downsides if you get wet. Synth is heavier, bulkier, but has less downside, but still a downside.....only exception is whether or not that extra weight and bulk slows you down enough so that your safety is compromised...

For what it's worth - I only use down for my personal adventures.
D
 
Go with one of the new synthetics.:thumbup: You already know what happens when down gets wet, right? :mad:
 
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