Down the rabbit hole - deburring/stropping

The two most fundamental tenets of sharpening, IMO, are these: 1) 95% of sharpening is done on the coarsest belt or stone and 2) deburring is the main thing that separates a tolerable edge from a great one. On stones I do the bulk of deburring with ever-lighter alternating passes on the stone. I do this on each succeeding stone for the most part. The last stropping is usually done on a kangaroo strop with fine diamond or CBN emulsion.

On belts I generally use the following progression: Cubitron P120 > Trizact A30 > felt belt doped with 3 micron CBN or diamond emulsion. I'll often follow up with a double-sided hand strop with kangaroo doped with 0.5 micron StroppyStuff and StroppyStuff 9 micron on the rough side. Most of the knives I sharpen for customers get this treatment unless they request hand sharpening. I don't have a BESS Testor although I am considering getting one. I based my system on Cliff Curry's system, having watched his videos for awhile before flying out to train with him in Hawaii. He gets under 100 on the BESS using this system minus the hand stropping (he never hand strops to my knowledge). To be honest it might just be habit or superstition but I just don't feel like the job is "done" until I've hand stropped the knife.🤫

I do have Scotchbrite wheels but I only use them for deburring on garden tools for the most part. I know Cliff sometimes uses them this way which is maybe why I sometimes feel the need/desire to finish with a hand strop. Occasionally I use a rock hard felt wheel doped with 3 micron CNB spray when I want a "slicker", less toothy edge. Usually I aim for a bitey/toothy edge when sharpening wiht powered gear.

Before stumbling on Cliff's videos about edge-leading belt sharpening I'd been doing it edge-trailing for 20-some years and deburring on a leather belt doped with HandAmerican Green Chromium (it came in a bottle like Elmer's Glue). "Serious" sharpening I usually did on stones with belts being reserved for house knives and tools. Interestingly it took a while to get used to a felt belt, it just didn't feel right. But after I'd been using felt in my shop for a year I decided to try a leather belt again and I now hated it. 🤯 Initially I tried felt because it doesn't stretch and can be left on the machine all the time. Eventually I came to prefer the performance. I feel like the leather is faster and more agressive when deburring I feel like it's maybe too agressive compared to felt. The felt belts have tremendous life, too. I used one for a year and it was still working but starting to get kind of gunked up so I switched out to a new one.

I've been sharpening for at least 25 years or more but I still find there's more learn.
 
Thanks for the suggestions. I started off trying the wheel after seeing Cliff Curry's process. He typically deburrs with the green Scotch Brite wheel.

I wasn't having good luck with the wheel. This was before getting the BESS tester and before getting a lower speed grinder. I could feel the change in sharpness after using the wheel. I believe I was applying too much pressure for the speed of the wheel on that grinder. I now have another grinder that moves slower. Will have to give that a try.

Bruce
 
I don't sharpen or strop with powered belts or wheels, so my results may not translate to those that do.

I've gotten some of the best results with lapping film on glass. The hard substrate and thin film seem to hold the abrasive surface mostly off the apex, so it doesn't wrap around the edge. This makes getting the ideal pressure much less of a problem. If you get the first stages (the most coarse stages) right, meaning there is a crisp, honest apex, the lapping film stropping process seems to clean away anything that shouldn't be there with no drama and no rounding of the apex.

Lapping film is available with AO, SC, or diamond abrasives and I am slowly getting a feel for which variety works best on different steels. It also seems to be the most reliable way for me to get a brilliant, reflective shine, if appearance matters!

I think my life would be a lot easier if I only owned knives made of one steel, with all of them treated to the same hardness. It is way too late for that now!

I have experienced that problem where a stropping stage raises my BESS score rather than lowering it. The only explanation I can suggest is that particular stage may have "broken off" a foil edge, leaving behind a flat surface where the apex should be.
 
A keen edge is all about the finish. Some guys seem to be able to strop with stones… whatever works. For me, the success comes when you get the right angle with a good media and the correct pressure. It seems as though every metallurgist that has ever walked the earth created his “best” steel. Every steel responds differently to grinding/stropping. Buck knives will take more pressure stropping than a Smith and Wesson. Stainless is the worst. Maybe the higher vanadium makes those burrs want to hang on, but they’re a pain for sure. The bottom line is, if you can’t generate the numbers you want with what you’re doing, you gotta change something. For me, it was both the angle and the pressure. (Compounds and emulsions do make a difference, but are not deal breakers. That’s to say, results will come faster with some pastes vs. others.)
When chasing a low Bess score, I find that progressively lightening the pressure to the point of no pressure can really help when stropping on a wheel. The belt is tougher for me and more random as you’re dealing in quarter microns. Unless you’re using a controlled angle, you’re going to have variances (and even then.) Some guys are better than others but I believe anyone can eventually get there.
I said all that to say everyone does it differently. Focus on what matters, angle and pressure, and you will arrive. You do need some decent equipment so you don’t pull all your hair out, but the process just boils down to those two critical components. IMHO
 
A great dal of useful knowledge getting passed down here and truth be told, you will almost always run across new wisedom, processing, for me, I have a few of the knife shapening sytems that you pull or stroke the blade with not very wide gauged tools that do some of the work, but, I have found those type of sharpening "systems" are not so good, the pressure assigned to eack stroke may overlap, miss,etc.

And then I found a roller syste where one half of the rollers are assigned your angle of attack, keeping everthing in timing as to the pressure, and coverage to really help get your desired degree unified. Nothing how ever stop my use of stones or diamond plates.

Once things start to give what is needed, you've learned the skill set to obtain that nice, smooth fine shiny edge after that final strop.

Going back in time, I came across a strop/sharpening pudding like compoud from a japanese supplier that a world famous shusi chef that uses it to keep his knife really sharp. Now we may not have his extreme needs, and those shusi blades are never going to do bushcrafing,but his technique is very good information and a pleasant presentation on how to keep ahad of the venture of sharpness! I do not recall his YouTube but if you look around, you might find him, his product label is not in english but I should be able to find it KOYO Stainless Steel Polishing Compound 100ml cleaner NEW on ebay. I spent a ton of money on gun, knife, computers. For me this product really works.
 
Gottagofishn said:
A keen edge is all about the finish. Some guys seem to be able to strop with stones… whatever works. For me, the success comes when you get the right angle with a good media and the correct pressure. It seems as though every metallurgist that has ever walked the earth created his “best” steel. Every steel responds differently to grinding/stropping. Buck knives will take more pressure stropping than a Smith and Wesson. Stainless is the worst. Maybe the higher vanadium makes those burrs want to hang on, but they’re a pain for sure. The bottom line is, if you can’t generate the numbers you want with what you’re doing, you gotta change something. For me, it was both the angle and the pressure. (Compounds and emulsions do make a difference, but are not deal breakers. That’s to say, results will come faster with some pastes vs. others.)
When chasing a low Bess score, I find that progressively lightening the pressure to the point of no pressure can really help when stropping on a wheel. The belt is tougher for me and more random as you’re dealing in quarter microns. Unless you’re using a controlled angle, you’re going to have variances (and even then.) Some guys are better than others but I believe anyone can eventually get there.
I said all that to say everyone does it differently. Focus on what matters, angle and pressure, and you will arrive. You do need some decent equipment so you don’t pull all your hair out, but the process just boils down to those two critical components. IMHO
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Amen!
 
Gottagofishn said:
Love the variable speed machines. I can slow grind and kick it up a notch for stropping.
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If a person wants to try that system, they can buy some cheap blades and see here it goes. For me,, I hesitate use of any power based grinding, too chicken I guess, I own several electrified, Frankenstein contraptions and as they have been great collecting dust-bunnies, I think I will put them up for sale dirt cheap, they are all new with al the goodies included, but I know you are an expert compared to me!
 
Certainty no expert… just a tad obsessive. When I came to know I was going to get more intense about sharpening I decided to go the powered route thinking it would be cheaper than a bunch of expensive stones. I mean, all I needed was a 1x30 and some belts? Hahahahahaha… After selling two children and mortgaging the home I was able to add a T-8. Finally I sold the home and two cars and could afford a few CBN wheels. Now I live in a cardboard box, but I sure can get those knives sharp!
 
Gottagofishn said:
Certainty no expert… just a tad obsessive. When I came to know I was going to get more intense about sharpening I decided to go the powered route thinking it would be cheaper than a bunch of expensive stones. I mean, all I needed was a 1x30 and some belts? Hahahahahaha… After selling two children and mortgaging the home I was able to add a T-8. Finally I sold the home and two cars and could afford a few CBN wheels. Now I live in a cardboard box, but I sure can get those knives sharp!
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I feel your pain, except, I have all the stones too 😭
 
Tried the green wheel again. Noticed it was wobbly. Turns out, I'd managed to clip a chunk out of it (no idea when) that was the source of the wobble. Used some old belts to try to make it more symmetrical. Working better (not perfect, but much better). Quick test of two knives last evening were positive. Still not getting super low BESS scores (that's likely a technique issue for me in the initial grinding process). But, at least I know I can get effective deburring quickly and easily.

More testing to come tomorrow.

BTW: anyone have recommendations for a jig for use with a WS KO Mk2 BGA setup? If the issue for me now is technique, that will be confirmed or refuted using a jig to help maintain correct alignment.

Bruce
 
bdaabat said:
Tried the green wheel again. Noticed it was wobbly. Turns out, I'd managed to clip a chunk out of it (no idea when) that was the source of the wobble. Used some old belts to try to make it more symmetrical. Working better (not perfect, but much better). Quick test of two knives last evening were positive. Still not getting super low BESS scores (that's likely a technique issue for me in the initial grinding process). But, at least I know I can get effective deburring quickly and easily.

More testing to come tomorrow.

BTW: anyone have recommendations for a jig for use with a WS KO Mk2 BGA setup? If the issue for me now is technique, that will be confirmed or refuted using a jig to help maintain correct alignment.

Bruce
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Bruce,
That was exactly what I ran into in my rabbit hole. After purchasing the 1x30 I picked up a guide for it. It did not work consistently enough and didn't help with stropping at all. That was when I decided I would get a controlled angle system. In my quest to not spend my last penny, I bought a Tormek knock off. It did OK, but I needed to fidget with it all the time. It wasn't going to perform precise enough to generate the apex I wanted.
Eventually I sprang for the T-8. Outstanding machine! With the controlled angle feature I started to get dialed in. Finally, the paper wheel setup. All expensive and probably overkill if you only sharpen for yourself.

If you do only sharpen for yourself I believe a controlled angle setup, like a ko, tsprof, or any other quality system should help you generate lower Bess numbers.... However, that’s not to say you won’t accomplish it with your current setup. IMHO
 
me2 said:
I just wondered what you consider real tool steel if A2 isn’t it?
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A2 is pretty soft and basic compared to what is available today .
M4 is worlds better .
XHP though not really considered a tool steel it is not considered a stainless . I find it better in a chisel used on mild steel.
D2 is not as tough but better at edge retention
3V is not considered a super edge holder but is still waaaaaaayyyy above H2
M2 is above that though I have never used it .

Don't make me invoke the 15V monster / God or REX 121 THE INVINCIBLE .

Other than those A2 is usable as a tool steel and I have spent weeks , for hours every day of those weeks , using and dulling A2 in woodworking tool blades . (wishing I had something better edge wear wise ; it never chipped . . .) .

PS : I supose I was also refering to the stainlesss like qualities of A2 ; most of the more serious tool steel alloys show patina if you look at them if not right out RUST .
As I've always said : if it rusts I'm interested as far as a blade steel .
I am currently "testing" / fooling around with Magacut for sharpening and edge holding . Maybe it will make me change my tune .

So far = crazy easy to sharpen on non diamond stones ((((no electric motor power needed))) .
 
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G Gottagofishn : Thanks for the feedback. I'm doing this for others as well as for myself. I started a sharpening business last October.

In part, because I'm just starting off, I don't have the funds to re-start and grab a full Tormek setup.

I have an Edge Pro Apex. It works OK, but I have not been able to get lower BESS scores with that guided system than with my current Work Sharp system. And, the Edge Pro is very slow compared to the Work Sharp.

Where I'm at right now is that the BESS scores are a "game" that's mainly for me. It's a personal challenge to get lower scores. I'm going to figure it out!

I ordered a 3D printed riser for my WS off of Etsy. Scheduled for delivery next week. Let's see how this works.

Bruce
 
bdaabat said:
G Gottagofishn : Thanks for the feedback. I'm doing this for others as well as for myself. I started a sharpening business last October.

In part, because I'm just starting off, I don't have the funds to re-start and grab a full Tormek setup.

I have an Edge Pro Apex. It works OK, but I have not been able to get lower BESS scores with that guided system than with my current Work Sharp system. And, the Edge Pro is very slow compared to the Work Sharp.

Where I'm at right now is that the BESS scores are a "game" that's mainly for me. It's a personal challenge to get lower scores. I'm going to figure it out!

I ordered a 3D printed riser for my WS off of Etsy. Scheduled for delivery next week. Let's see how this works.

Bruce
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Imo, bess scores mean little. Having the ultimate sharpness for every blade is not the mission. Some blades need more, some blades need less, all depends on the blades intended use.

Understanding what a cleanly finished edge is like, is more valuable than a scaled number. For example: I sharpen most folders and small fixed blades with a Tormek 600 grit diamond wheel. I sharpen softer stainless kitchen knives with a 120 grit belt sander. I sharpen most high end kitchen knives with a Chosera 3000 and sushi knives are finished with a 10k or 16k stone. The Sushi knives would score the highest without a doubt but that same edge on other knives would be a terrible choice.
 
Wowbagger said:
A2 is pretty soft and basic compared to what is available today .
M4 is worlds better .
XHP though not really considered a tool steel it is not considered a stainless . I find it better in a chisel used on mild steel.
D2 is not as tough but better at edge retention
3V is not considered a super edge holder but is still waaaaaaayyyy above H2
M2 is above that though I have never used it .

Don't make me invoke the 15V monster / God or REX 121 THE INVINCIBLE .

Other than those A2 is usable as a tool steel and I have spent weeks , for hours every day of those weeks , using and dulling A2 in woodworking tool blades . (wishing I had something better edge wear wise ; it never chipped . . .) .

PS : I supose I was also refering to the stainlesss like qualities of A2 ; most of the more serious tool steel alloys show patina if you look at them if not right out RUST .
As I've always said : if it rusts I'm interested as far as a blade steel .
I am currently "testing" / fooling around with Magacut for sharpening and edge holding . Maybe it will make me change my tune .

So far = crazy easy to sharpen on non diamond stones ((((no electric motor power needed))) .
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In the context of your post it isn’t stainless was my real Westin and it is one of the oldest tool steels used for knives, noted in David Boye’s book from the late 70s or early 80s. All that said, I have not used it in a knife though I have a petty knife blank on my bench. I had a blade hardened to 62-63 but it warped a bit. I tried to straighten it and it broke so I never got to use it.
 
I just got some spectacular results using edge-leading strokes on 5 micron aluminum oxide lapping film on glass. I started using a well-used piece since I wasn't sure if the blade would slice into the film. My fears were unfounded, as I discovered that you would have to be very careless to bite into the film. (I am not a pro, so if I can do it, most folks can do it!) I deburred Magnacut and S35VN blades at 18 degrees per side, testing before and after.

The BESS machine tracked very large improvements with just three to five strokes per side. The feel of each pass also changed dramatically. Feedback was really clear. I am very familiar with both blades I tested, and I never saw results like this before. It leaves a very bright, shiny finish as well, if that is important to you.

I am going to try a Blue Paper #2 blade next. I've hit honest scores right at 70 grams with this knife, freehand on Jende strops and diamonds, and I am wondering if I can get closer to 50 or 60 grams. Not that the knife needs to be that "sharp" but just to see if this is a superior deburring procedure.

If you are serious about sharpening, and I believe anyone who has gotten this deep into this thread is at least "very serious", you really ought to give this stuff a try. You can buy single sheets if you just want to try it out, and it holds up to a lot more use than I expected, keeping the cost very reasonable. From what I am seeing, it is extremely effective and much faster than anything else I have tried! For the guys using belts, you can probably start and finish in the same or less time that it takes to change a belt.

I feel like I just discovered another chamber in The Great Pyramid! Your results may vary, and I would love to hear comments or suggestions from anyone else who has tried it!

Edge-leading strokes!!!
 
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Jason B. said:
sushi knives are finished with a 10k or 16k stone. The Sushi knives would score the highest without a doubt but that same edge on other knives would be a terrible choice.
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And yet , some how , I think I could "put up with it" . :)
Keeping in mind Vivi has got me "testing" 220 toothy against "my edges" on two IDENTICAL FIXED BLADES for cutting a specific type of thick pallet strap that I cut every day .
I looked at the toothy with magnification . Wished I hadn't . Frightful . . . just frightful .🙁
 
me2 said:
In the context of your post it isn’t stainless was my real Westin and it is one of the oldest tool steels used for knives, noted in David Boye’s book from the late 70s or early 80s. All that said, I have not used it in a knife though I have a petty knife blank on my bench. I had a blade hardened to 62-63 but it warped a bit. I tried to straighten it and it broke so I never got to use it.
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Just anneal it a taste and make a smaller knife ?
David Boye’s book
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Yes ! Great stuff .
He made most of what he sold from old saw mill blades though .
AND THE ETCHINGS ! ! ! ! To die for !
His partner Francine did those .
Love that term "Aqua Regia" !
 
Khromo said:
blade would slice into the film.
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Yes AWFUL stuff . The goopy glue on the edges of the tape tends to get where I don't want it . Then the tip of the knife tangling with the tape . I have been getting like "places" on the tape that then marks up the polished edge bevels . Give me a friable stone any day .

Diemaker had me going for a while with going edge leading on the Matrix stones ; same deal ; sharpens great until the tip of the knife takes it's toll . . . then the slightest mistake takes another divot . . . pretty soon the stone looks like the surface of a motocross coarse . Still sharpens but . . .

This is what I get for fooling around with high vanadium (9% . . . 14% Vanadium) . Sure it is staggeringly sharp but the bevels are not as pretty as the 3 or 4 % Vanadium blades off the "lesser" non diamond stones and so I assume that the very edge apex kind of sucks as well .

I see , finally , that this thread is about time vs money and commercial sharpening .
I'll bow out .
 
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