Down the rabbit hole - deburring/stropping

I'd highly recommend picking up a cheap digital microscope from Amazon. When you get up into those higher grits it's really hard to see or feel what's going on with the burr. It really come in handy when things aren't going the way they should. You can just get a good clear view of the apex and take all the guess work out of it.
 
Jason B. said:
Imo, bess scores mean little. Having the ultimate sharpness for every blade is not the mission. Some blades need more, some blades need less, all depends on the blades intended use.

Understanding what a cleanly finished edge is like, is more valuable than a scaled number. For example: I sharpen most folders and small fixed blades with a Tormek 600 grit diamond wheel. I sharpen softer stainless kitchen knives with a 120 grit belt sander. I sharpen most high end kitchen knives with a Chosera 3000 and sushi knives are finished with a 10k or 16k stone. The Sushi knives would score the highest without a doubt but that same edge on other knives would be a terrible choice.
Click to expand...
I agree with your overall statement however, I don’t sharpen customers knives to 50. Initially I just needed to climb that mountain. Now I rarely attempt those numbers… unless I feel the need, and it happens occasionally. I love a truly razor edge on my EDC.
It’s a time thing… and as you mentioned, sometimes not the best option. I read scalpels test around 200. At 50 you would cut anything you touched. So yeah, I understand, different edges for different uses.
 
I just had a customer that had brought me a couple nice knives. I thought I had done well chasing low BESS scores. When I checked back with him, he noted that they didn't seem to cut tomatoes very well. He said they seemed like they were "too slippery". I believe his knives were sharpened to BESS scores in the 100-110 range.

Sigh.

It seems I may have gone overboard with chasing a score rather than creating a functional edge.

Bruce
 
bdaabat said:
I just had a customer that had brought me a couple nice knives. I thought I had done well chasing low BESS scores. When I checked back with him, he noted that they didn't seem to cut tomatoes very well. He said they seemed like they were "too slippery". I believe his knives were sharpened to BESS scores in the 100-110 range.

Sigh.

It seems I may have gone overboard with chasing a score rather than creating a functional edge.

Bruce
Click to expand...
I'd be willing to bet most of us have gone down that same path. I know I did.

I chased highly polished edges for a while until I realized they didn't really work well for my uses. I had a Case traditional folder on which I'd reprofiled and polished the edge to a very high degree. Tried to use it to repair a polybutylene water line underneath my house once and found it wouldn't cut that stuff AT ALL. Very cut-resistant stuff, I found out. That 'slippery' effect you describe was very much in play there. I eventually figured out that an edge with a relatively thin grind and acute edge geometry, finished to a medium grit toothy bite, worked much better for jobs like that, as well as for most of my other uses like opening mail, slicing tomatoes and many other tasks. Once I figured that out, I was able to find my 'happy zone' in a medium grit edge at narrow geometry. I've never looked back.
 
bdaabat said:
I just had a customer that had brought me a couple nice knives. I thought I had done well chasing low BESS scores. When I checked back with him, he noted that they didn't seem to cut tomatoes very well. He said they seemed like they were "too slippery". I believe his knives were sharpened to BESS scores in the 100-110 range.

Sigh.

It seems I may have gone overboard with chasing a score rather than creating a functional edge.

Bruce
Click to expand...


A "food sharp" edge seems to want a little tooth. For me, anywhere from 800 to 3K can produce an aggressive edge that cuts ripe tomatos. brown onion skins, brocolli stems and giant carrots. Polishing much beyond that seems to bring on that "slippery" effect where the blade slides back and forth without cutting the food.

I think that when I want to measure that food-sharpness, paper towels are a very good measure. If your edge is gliding back and forth over paper towels, it might not give the best results on food!
 
Khromo said:
A "food sharp" edge seems to want a little tooth. For me, anywhere from 800 to 3K can produce an aggressive edge that cuts ripe tomatos. brown onion skins, brocolli stems and giant carrots. Polishing much beyond that seems to bring on that "slippery" effect where the blade slides back and forth without cutting the food.

I think that when I want to measure that food-sharpness, paper towels are a very good measure. If your edge is gliding back and forth over paper towels, it might not give the best results on food!
Click to expand...
👍 That's EXACTLY how I test the edges on most of my knives, especially my kitchen knives, when I touch them up. If they slice effortlessly through a paper towel, I know with certainty they'll perform as I want them to in all of my other uses.
 
Last edited:
IMHO super refined edges only perform well on quality steels. In my experience, stainless rolls or blunts too easily for a "polished" or highly refined edge for customers. I do mine that way as I am able to maintain that edge, but not for users.
 
Here is a solution to keeping the kitchen knives extra sharp without a lot of moving parts.

KnS1zA7.jpg


dHXrUcw.jpg


AbjcyMu.jpg


This 2,000 grit Naniwa Chosera Pro stone leaves a pretty fine edge with light pressure, or cleans up a tired edge fairly quickly. If you don't let your knives get too dull, this stone keeps a good food-sharp edge going for an extended period.

8lhSyr2.jpg


A few passes over red Harald-Solingen paste-on-leather seems to clean up any burrs on most steel.

CkyA4G4.jpg


This is a simple but effective little rig that stores in half a kitchen drawer. The plastic box is an effective stand, and you just need to splash water on the top surface and it is ready to go. There is room to store a few little blue plastic angle guides. Clean up with a few paper towels, and your wife will never know the difference.
 
bdaabat said:
I just had a customer that had brought me a couple nice knives. I thought I had done well chasing low BESS scores. When I checked back with him, he noted that they didn't seem to cut tomatoes very well. He said they seemed like they were "too slippery". I believe his knives were sharpened to BESS scores in the 100-110 range.

Sigh.

It seems I may have gone overboard with chasing a score rather than creating a functional edge.

Bruce
Click to expand...
Yes and NO !
I get that comment from "The Chef" (my significant other or as she is more commonly known SWMBO) .:)
She is less than impressed when I put "My Edge" on the knife ; what I would want to cut food with .
She expects a "toothy edge" . Wants to feel that vibration of matter destruction through the handle in her hand !

I know better , my edges touch the skin on a tomato and it just opens up (push cut) then I slice .
But what ever . Mostly it is geometry , try cutting a hot dog bun or similar bread with an American geometry kitchen whacker . . . makes one reach for a "bread knife" . . . then try it with a REAL Japanese geometry KITCHEN KNIFE . Makes one wonder why they have a bread knife .
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
I'd be willing to bet most of us have gone down that same path. I know I did.

I chased highly polished edges for a while until I realized they didn't really work well for my uses. I had a Case traditional folder on which I'd reprofiled and polished the edge to a very high degree. Tried to use it to repair a polybutylene water line underneath my house once and found it wouldn't cut that stuff AT ALL. Very cut-resistant stuff, I found out. That 'slippery' effect you describe was very much in play there. I eventually figured out that an edge with a relatively thin grind and acute edge geometry, finished to a medium grit toothy bite, worked much better for jobs like that, as well as for most of my other uses like opening mail, slicing tomatoes and many other tasks. Once I figured that out, I was able to find my 'happy zone' in a medium grit edge at narrow geometry. I've never looked back.
Click to expand...
Blasphemous ! 😁
I will not listen to this .
lalalalala

(((left pocket : toothy))
(((right pocket : Polished and acute ; My Precious !)))
PPPPPPSS : I just spent these last two work weeks "experimenting with " " testing" the Vivi Toothy Edge (200 to 400 with a couple swipes of the Ultra Fine Triangle Rod) . Cutting about forty thickish "plastic" pallet straps . I usually use a tiny hacksaw . Not because I have to but I don't want to "violate" my pristine polished edge on so "mundane" a task . She was made for "better things " . :rolleyes:

PS : next time on the tubing try a spray of alcohol or a wipe of WD . I do this All The Time at work .
I put candle wax or Glider Wax on my woodworking hand tools . Comes naturally .

(((((I hate toothy))))). If for no other reason is it wears out knives . Try to wear out a knife with 2,000 and 4,000 stones (Shapton Glass) or 8,000 Norton basic water stone) . 🧐 Ain't gonna happen .
 
Last edited:
The Suehiro Rika 5K can also leave a very toothy edge, too! It's not as refined as a 5K edge, more like 3K. I used that as my finisher and then stropped on rough side bare leather to deburr. Performed wickedly on paper towels! But it's soft and needs flattening more often; when it dishes, it can round out your apex if you aren't careful.

Rika 5K and bare leather:

When I started doing more with strops, I went with a 1000 diamond and 5000 grit diamond compound since I liked a 1K and 5K water stone combo. The diamond strop leaves the edge more polished though, so now I play with a 40 micron and 1 micron strop. Couple passes on each side has the edge deburred and cleaned up a bit, but still nice and aggressive after the diamond stones. With diamond on the strops, it's easy to over strop! I usually lower the spine a hair towards the strop when I use them compared to the store angle. This seems to help keep the crisp apex better, probably because the slight give in the leather makes up for the lower angle? I am not looking for a mirror bevel, just a cleaned up edge!

I picked up the Sharpal 220/600 recently and started using that and got a really nice edge on some MagnaMax today with it! I used to use the 325/1200 Sharpal, but read about a 600 grit diamond edge then stropping, so that is what I have been doing. I also picked up a set of cheap 1000, 2000 and 3000 diamond plates to see how those work. I need to order another lighted eye loupe; I can't find mine anymore!

Sharpening is a fun rabbit hole. I went from synthetic waterstones and Natural Japanese stones, had full sets in both, with different stones at some grits (like multiple 1000-1200), and now am pretty much diamond stones only. Much faster, easier, and no worrying about soaking or flattening.
 
Taz said:
The Suehiro Rika 5K can also leave a very toothy edge, too! It's not as refined as a 5K edge, more like 3K. I used that as my finisher and then stropped on rough side bare leather to deburr. Performed wickedly on paper towels! But it's soft and needs flattening more often; when it dishes, it can round out your apex if you aren't careful.

Rika 5K and bare leather:

When I started doing more with strops, I went with a 1000 diamond and 5000 grit diamond compound since I liked a 1K and 5K water stone combo. The diamond strop leaves the edge more polished though, so now I play with a 40 micron and 1 micron strop. Couple passes on each side has the edge deburred and cleaned up a bit, but still nice and aggressive after the diamond stones. With diamond on the strops, it's easy to over strop! I usually lower the spine a hair towards the strop when I use them compared to the store angle. This seems to help keep the crisp apex better, probably because the slight give in the leather makes up for the lower angle? I am not looking for a mirror bevel, just a cleaned up edge!

I picked up the Sharpal 220/600 recently and started using that and got a really nice edge on some MagnaMax today with it! I used to use the 325/1200 Sharpal, but read about a 600 grit diamond edge then stropping, so that is what I have been doing. I also picked up a set of cheap 1000, 2000 and 3000 diamond plates to see how those work. I need to order another lighted eye loupe; I can't find mine anymore!

Sharpening is a fun rabbit hole. I went from synthetic waterstones and Natural Japanese stones, had full sets in both, with different stones at some grits (like multiple 1000-1200), and now am pretty much diamond stones only. Much faster, easier, and no worrying about soaking or flattening.
Click to expand...
A question that is kind of off in left field but :
quite a while ago I reprofiled and thinned a LC200N stainless knife on a very basic wide belt sander using a Zirconium Alumina belt 60 or 80 grit .
Later when I attempted to use the belt on another much harder , middle Vanadium alloy the belt just would not cut for beans even though to the eye it looked like new and felt Very Agressive / Sharp . After attemptiing to clean the belt I got so frustrated I reversed the belt on the sander as a last ditch effort before I threw it out and she cut like new(ish) and I was able to thin the second blade as I wanted .

My point is the friable stones tend to sluff off and self sharpen or they get conditioned by flattening . . . .
The diamonds , not doing either , I would think they would take on blade material like this belt did (lightly fused to the diamond) (especially like this softer stainless) and soap and water or even cleanser might not fix them .

I have piles and piles of metal bonded diamond stones , mostly new and for my Edge Pro . . . I'm liking my (high vanadium) edges off my Matrix Diamond stones better though I don't like the Matrix stones as much as the basic friable stones first mentioned (but they are not for the high vanadium) .

I have several LARGE (10inch or so) diamond plates but they only get used for flattening the friable or ceramic stones .

How to clean the little metal bonded diamond stones ?
Thanks .
 
Last edited:
I don't know? The belts break down, so running the belt backwards exposes grit that hasn't broke down as much yet. With high vanadium steels, worn belts can glaze over and burnish the surface instead of cutting it. I was getting a shiny almost 400 grit looking finish off of a worn 60 grit belt on s90v before.

The diamond plates will eventually wear and not cut as much as the diamond loosen on the substrate and come off and they get clogged/ worn out over time. I've used the sharpal 325/1200 for well over a year now and is still going strong. The key with diamonds is to use very light pressure and let the diamond do the work at its pace instead of trying to force it and make it work quicker. using a lot of pressure on the diamond stone will get the clog/ wear out much faster. I haven't tried the friable diamond Stones yet.
 
Taz said:
I don't know? The belts break down, so running the belt backwards exposes grit that hasn't broke down as much yet. With high vanadium steels, worn belts can glaze over and burnish the surface instead of cutting it. I was getting a shiny almost 400 grit looking finish off of a worn 60 grit belt on s90v before.

The diamond plates will eventually wear and not cut as much as the diamond loosen on the substrate and come off and they get clogged/ worn out over time. I've used the sharpal 325/1200 for well over a year now and is still going strong. The key with diamonds is to use very light pressure and let the diamond do the work at its pace instead of trying to force it and make it work quicker. using a lot of pressure on the diamond stone will get the clog/ wear out much faster. I haven't tried the friable diamond Stones yet.
Click to expand...
You made a comment in your post regarding pressure. I 100% agree that with any abrasive I have used, the abrasive needs to do the work, not added pressure.!
Key part of the learning curve IMO
 
Yup! When I got the 220/600, I used a little more pressure to break in the stone and knock off any loose particles and washed it off good. Edge it gave on a knife was horrible, nasty burr, rough feeling, etc and took some extra work. But once that break in was done and I went back to using my normal little to no pressure, it performed really well on Magnamax and Magnacut. Next up is some S90V!

I also picked up a set of different eye loupes; no idea where I put my old ones! I want to see what the various diamond compound grits that I use look like on a blade bevel. I've really been liking my 40/1 diamond strop. Sounds crazy, but the 40 micron knocks away any burr quick and the 1 micron seems to clean up the edge, but leave it crispy sharp! I have some 1/2 micron diamond paste somewhere, too, so I need to try that out. I think I like the 40/1 better than my 14/3 strop?
 
Taz said:
Yup! When I got the 220/600, I used a little more pressure to break in the stone and knock off any loose particles and washed it off good. Edge it gave on a knife was horrible, nasty burr, rough feeling, etc and took some extra work. But once that break in was done and I went back to using my normal little to no pressure, it performed really well on Magnamax and Magnacut. Next up is some S90V!

I also picked up a set of different eye loupes; no idea where I put my old ones! I want to see what the various diamond compound grits that I use look like on a blade bevel. I've really been liking my 40/1 diamond strop. Sounds crazy, but the 40 micron knocks away any burr quick and the 1 micron seems to clean up the edge, but leave it crispy sharp! I have some 1/2 micron diamond paste somewhere, too, so I need to try that out. I think I like the 40/1 better than my 14/3 strop?
Click to expand...
What do you apply the 40 micron to? Just curious as I read leather can hold up to 6 micron. Sounds interesting though. Any particular brand?
 
Venev 40 micron diamond stropping paste, applied to rough side leather. My 40/1 strop has both sides as rough side out leather. I messed it up when I glued the leather on, so it became my tester strop.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top