Dowsing: Fact or Fiction?

[baldtaco-II]

I must say that I'm always a tad wary of the if / then statement of whatever ilk.

An interesting thing I recall that may have some relevance here is the case of when some folk claim they are influenced by the phases of the moon. In support of that I've heard an argument that goes something like "humans are yay % water, and look at the effect the moon has on the ocean tides, so it is plausible...". Patrick Moore was asked to comment on exactly that and his response was; "it is true, it does exert some influence on you, it exerts about the same amount of influence on you as the gravitational force of a London bus traveling half a mile from you".

 

[neeman]

Extra-ordinary does not lend itself to scientific proof

A sense of extra-ordinary is a skill we honor in woodsmen and look for that sense from indiginous people who seem to be closer connected

Fact and provability of dowsing is shown by constant use by enough folk here
That a scientific theory is not shown is where the lack of a thesis is only failure in an academic enviroment

 

[Codger_64]

Extra-ordinary does not lend itself to scientific proof

A sense of extra-ordinary is a skill we honor in woodsmen and look for that sense from indiginous people who seem to be closer connected

Fact and provability of dowsing is shown by constant use by enough folk here
That a scientific theory is not shown is where the lack of a thesis is only failure in an academic enviroment

I agree. There are many people who just "know" where North is. Some few are near infalible. Many are usually correct. Many are more often correct than not. Some people have no sense of direction whatsoever and will argue with an accurate compass.

 

[Preacher Man]

The problem with the Randi Educational Foundation price is that it is set to test a supernatural event, but most practicing dowsers who are able to repeat the event with any degree of success do not claim it to be supernatural. Therefore if it is the unconscious ability to recognize subtle geographical signs, or an unconscious ability to sense minute changes in the electromagnetic field, neither would win Randi's price, even if they are 100% accurate 100% of the time. None of the individuals who posted here who say they experienced successful dowsing claimed it was supernatural. Most utterly deny it being supernatural in origin. Using the price money as an argument is a fallacious way to avoid dealing with the personal evidence of the posters.

I don't dowse and I don't really care for it, mostly because I can't do it. If someone is confident enough in his dowsing ability that he is willing to use it as his main water finding technique, power to them, and good luck. Since I can't do it, I will follow the contours of the terrain and visual evidence that points to water been present. But I'm definitely not arrogant enough to deny the personal experience of another just because his experience doesn't fit my world-view. I can tell you that in a survival situation, if after trying repeatedly and unsuccessfully to find water, someone claims to be able to dowse, I'll let him try and hope that he does find water.

 

[baldtaco-II]

Personally, I think whether one classifies dowsing a supernatural event or not is least interesting part of the discussion. Some of us believe it would qualify as one due to the totally absence of any scientific support and others do not, ho hum. What I find most salient is that no person has reliably demonstrated the effect. If they could they would be in a position to take "the prize" irrespective of any disagreement over semantics.Codger_64 raised a point that I'll follow up on for the purpose of analogy. He claimed "There are many people who just "know" where North is". Similar to the above; in the absence of any scientific support for that claim I would regard that as a supernatural feat. You may not. That really doesn't matter. What matters is rigor in the testing of that claim. To that extent the scientific methodology isn't far estranged from simply shooting at a target - "is it valid" = "are you hitting what you intended to hit", and "is it reliable" = "can you keep hitting that target". One without the other is meaningless. When you have both you can asses the probability of hitting that bully over and over again. That demonstrates you know something about it. It's no good just to fluke a couple of fliers in and call them hits. To assess the probability that "There are many people who just "know" where North is" I say bring 'em on to the pitch black room, you know the one, where you can't see your hand an inch from your face and the autokinetic effect would make your brains go funny - spin 'em round and mix 'em up, then see how reliably they can pick out north in there. I'd wager they'd fail against anyone dumb enough to bet against me. That's a test! All Randi's crew are doing is exposing dowsing to that type of rigor, and so far all it is showing is that dowsing is a bunch of bunk and any effect is caused by something else if it does occur. Simple.

 

[Myal]

this is an interesting thread
People saying its junk wont work others offering invites to come see for themselves .

Ive seen it work . I havent tried .

The science behind it ... I dont know .

Is it survival related ? i would say yes . In a way .

it never hurts to have an indication of where there is more likelihood of getting water . My opinion .

 

[Preacher Man]

At the risk of derailing the thread (more than it already has), lack of scientific support for the event is not evidence or proof that the event is not real or that is supernatural in nature. If that was the case, "Iron Shirt" techniques of Qigong/Shaolin kung fu would be impossible (which they are not) or supernatural (which I doubt). There is at least one documented test (using video and force/pressure sensors) of Iron Shirt techniques applied to the suprasternal notch under control conditions and the results defy scientific explanation. We can't assume fake or supernatural simply because current science can't explain it.

If dowsing is supernatural in nature or not, (assuming for argument sake that it is real) is more than semantics in the case of the tests performed by the JREF. I am a stage magician, used to be a member of the Society of American Magicians, and did my share of debunks of psychic , palm, and tarot reading claims. If the event is found to be the result of psychological or natural means, then it is not supernatural in nature and fails the test, even if the testee is accurate in its reading. The purpose of the test is not really to see if the testee succeeds or fails, but to determine how it is done or attempted.

It would be interesting to test how effective percentage wise dowsing is, but as long as those who want to prove is real are the ones who profit from it, and are more likely to be opportunists or con-artists, and those who when pressed claim some success have no interests or desire to proof or convince anyone of the reality of dowsing, testing it will be difficult. If someone steps up who projects an open mind to test for this, that may help some of those who claim success to submit to tests. That is difficult when they fell the tester is only interested to use them as an excuse for an agenda. They may fails miserably, but at least they'll trust the tester enough to accept the results. Not so when they feel the tester "is out to get them."

 

[Preacher Man]

this is an interesting thread
People saying its junk wont work others offering invites to come see for themselves .

Ive seen it work . I havent tried .

The science behind it ... I dont know .

Is it survival related ? i would say yes . In a way .

it never hurts to have an indication of where there is more likelihood of getting water . My opinion .

I haven't seen it work, but I think is possible, just not supernatural.

 

[bushidomosquito]

If I want to believe in magic and I see a magician perform a magic trick or witness other phenomenon that I can't explain then I will attest to you the very real nature of the supernatural, not even realizing that I have been fooled. If I don't believe in magic or the supernatural and I see a magic trick or witness other phenomenon that I can't explain then I will realize it as a trick and look for a reasonable explanation or just find something better to do. If I'm indifferent, not wanting to believe either way then I will not attest to you the very real nature of the supernatural.

It's all about what you want to believe. It doesn't affect reality but it sure does do a number on your perception.

 

[Codger_64]

I'm digging another pool on this coming Monday. I've already been over the site and confirmed that there are no utilities in the way of the dig except a gas line crossing one plumbing trench. Utility department spotting confirms my observations. I'll use dowsing again as that trench is dug to avoid cutting the gas line we must pass our plumbing over or under. I would take photos but doubters would claim shenanigans of some sort. Haters gonna hate. Doubters gonna doubt.

 

[BITEME]

I used to do locator work(still w/company diff. crew) for a company and I have used it a lot as a backup,though It works about every time I'm not willing to stake my job on it,others guys do it all the time and their still working?there is definitely something to it,just don't know what it is

 

[JCavSD]

Some people do it with a wooden stick or sticks, while others claim thin metal "L" shaped rods can find underground water. If I'm not mistaken, there's no science behind it.

Post number 1 above for reference.

But I'm definitely not arrogant enough to deny the personal experience of another just because his experience doesn't fit my world-view.

I’m not clear on what you mean by this. It seems as if you’re implying that it’s arrogant to deny the validity of phenomenon’s or beliefs that don’t hold up to skeptical inquiry (is this a world-view?) yet still hold some degree of popular support due to personal experience? If so, I’m not catching how sound critical thinking skills and a good dose of skepticism is arrogant. In my way of thinking this type of “world-view” should be considered a “best practice” for wilderness survival.

At the risk of derailing the thread (more than it already has), lack of scientific support for the event is not evidence or proof that the event is not real or that is supernatural in nature. If that was the case, "Iron Shirt" techniques of Qigong/Shaolin kung fu would be impossible (which they are not) or supernatural (which I doubt). There is at least one documented test (using video and force/pressure sensors) of Iron Shirt techniques applied to the suprasternal notch under control conditions and the results defy scientific explanation. We can't assume fake or supernatural simply because current science can't explain it.

I think you're largely missing the point. There are scientific explanations for dowsing…they just aren’t the type of explanations that anyone who douses really wants to hear. These explanations have been touched on throughout this thread. The human mind is a powerful instrument, but not always the most accurate instrument. Not recognizing our psychological limitation and tendencies can be dangerous in a survival situation.

Let’s not be like David St. Hubbins who said, “I believe virtually everything I read, and I think that is what makes me more of a selective human than someone who doesn't believe anything.”

 

[Codger_64]

Post number 1 above for reference.


I’m not clear on what you mean by this. It seems as if you’re implying that it’s arrogant to deny the validity of phenomenon’s or beliefs that don’t hold up to skeptical inquiry (is this a world-view?) yet still hold some degree of popular support due to personal experience? If so, I’m not catching how sound critical thinking skills and a good dose of skepticism is arrogant. In my way of thinking this type of “world-view” should be considered a “best practice” for wilderness survival.


I think you're largely missing the point. There are scientific explanations for dowsing…they just aren’t the type of explanations that anyone who douses really wants to hear. These explanations have been touched on throughout this thread. The human mind is a powerful instrument, but not always the most accurate instrument. Not recognizing our psychological limitation and tendencies can be dangerous in a survival situation.

Let’s not be like David St. Hubbins who said, “I believe virtually everything I read, and I think that is what makes me more of a selective human than someone who doesn't believe anything.”

Have you tried it for yourself? Have you seen other people try it? For the second time in as many weeks I am extending an open invitation to anyone wishing to see it work. I don't do it for money and it works for me whether someone else witnesses it or not. No paying audience required. I do it because it increases the safety of myself, my workers and my excavator, and it reduces down time that severed utilities cause. Am I 100% accurate? No. I have explained this in detail in previous posts.

But taking the tack that "I haven't seen it so it doesn't exist" would mean that Canada doesn't exist because I have never been there.

 

[Andrew Colglazier]

I'm digging another pool on this coming Monday. I've already been over the site and confirmed that there are no utilities in the way of the dig except a gas line crossing one plumbing trench. Utility department spotting confirms my observations. I'll use dowsing again as that trench is dug to avoid cutting the gas line we must pass our plumbing over or under. I would take photos but doubters would claim shenanigans of some sort. Haters gonna hate. Doubters gonna doubt.

Ah, come on. If you are fully confident in your dowsing fu, there should be no need for a utility to get involved. Just dig!

Andy

 

[JCavSD]

Have you tried it for yourself? Have you seen other people try it? For the second time in as many weeks I am extending an open invitation to anyone wishing to see it work. I don't do it for money and it works for me whether someone else witnesses it or not. No paying audience required. I do it because it increases the safety of myself, my workers and my excavator, and it reduces down time that severed utilities cause. Am I 100% accurate? No. I have explained this in detail in previous posts.

But taking the tack that "I haven't seen it so it doesn't exist" would mean that Canada doesn't exist because I have never been there.

I've been working for public water agencies since 1983 in the operations department. I've tried witching and nothing happens. However, at least half the people I work with believe that dowsing is effective. I've seen it fail many times, I've seen near misses that were called "success", and the times I have seen it "succeed" are questionable...there could be many other explanations. So, I guess this makes me an authority in the "personal experience" department relating to witching water mains.

The Canada analogy doesn't hold-up. Canada is a country, and we know that countries exist (I pay taxes to one), and a whole boat load of evidence can be supplied to support that Canada exists. Dowsing is an activity that some people partake in, and some scientific evidence exists suggesting that dowsing is a function of the mind playing tricks on itself...and that's where the evidence seems to end. I'm not saying that witching doesn't exist.

 

[schlotskey]

Dowsing is another topic that people try too easily to "bin". Are there frauds? Sure. Are there people that believe in it and find that it works? Certainly. I was taught by an old neighbor how to both find ground water and its depth within a foot. (Over the years the latter part has proven frustrating for friends and disbelievers to try to explain away.) In high school I had a great science teacher who nonetheless liked to challenge and mess with me. Knowing I sometimes dowsed for objects (besides water by then), he dedicated a class to a blind test for me out in the football field to prove its lack of credibility. I won on every account. : ) Over the years I've worked a few other techniques. To me, it's just a technique or mechanism to help recognize your intuitive side. If you're adamant against it, I guarantee it won't work for you. : )

No offense, but I fail to see any logic in the reply that my last line above is a cop out. If you want something to fail you're in control of, you've got pretty good odds of achieving your desire. Very little talent required.

 

[dipbait]

So you have to believe for it to work. Thats a cop out.

 

[22-rimfire]

I locate burried pipes all the time with a metal "L-shaped" rod. It works very well and people that see it done and are doubters are amazed. As far as dousing goes, I can't say. Proof? It works on pipes. It works on buried electric cables. The proof is in the doing. I locate septic tanks this way sometimes as well. I believe you are using what is called "magneto turllics" (sp?) which is a natural force field in the earth. Oil and gas folks use the method.

 

[Codger_64]

Ah, come on. If you are fully confident in your dowsing fu, there should be no need for a utility to get involved. Just dig!

Andy

I am confident that I can almost always locate an obstruction. But unless I can identify it by tracing it from a source, I cannot tell what it is, or it's depth. But I have explained all this before in detail. FYI, I often find that the utility companies are off on exact location and depth also. And not every obstruction is the responsibility of a utility company.

 

[JCavSD]

We really have been beating the heck out of this dead horse. For those who feel that personal experience is enough, go right ahead and believe what you will. You have plenty of company. For those who care to apply a more skeptical perspective, knock yourself out. The "real" dead horse we're beating has little to do with witching, and everything to do with differing methods of problem solving. The rest of the conversation is just played-out.