Dowsing: Fact or Fiction?

I think they work like Oija boards personally. A person's sub conscious is moving the rods. A case may be made for strong electrical currents but I think most, if not all, of the time the person is moving the rods themselves.

Dowsing, whether with rods or pendulum, is always a case of the person subconsciously moving the rods or pendulum...but it really feels like they move on their own.
The question is whether the person has the ability to sense what is being sought, and the answer is maybe.

I mean, dogs can sniff out lung cancer...how weird is that?
People have doing it for thousands of years in an attempt to stay alive (when searching for water, that is). If there had been no benefit along the way, it propbably would have died out, along with the people who relied on it.:)

But this whole thread was one giant trolling attempt. The title sounded like it was looking for an answer or testimonials, but was really a trap for someone to bash others so they could snidely feel superior.
Poor show I say, poor show.:thumbdn:
 
I agree. When I messed with a oija board when I was a kid my sister asked who I was going to marry and the board spelled out the name of the girl I had a crush on. Which was not the name of the girl I married. I think there's something to people being able to detect things but I think it's more straight forward then some mystical magical thing. Science may not be able to have an explanation but that doesn't mean it's not there. No one knows what gravity is but I trust in the idea enough not to jump off a bridge.
 
I think they work like Oija boards personally. A person's sub conscious is moving the rods. A case may be made for strong electrical currents but I think most, if not all, of the time the person is moving the rods themselves.

Simple test to prove Ouija boards don't work.

Have the users sit in a room where all lights are turned off and view them thru a nightvision device. When the subjects cant see the board, the pointer doesn't move. Amazing, isn't it?
 
I think they work like Oija boards personally. A person's sub conscious is moving the rods. A case may be made for strong electrical currents but I think most, if not all, of the time the person is moving the rods themselves.

Have you tried it then? Or are you just guessing?

Everything I detect has some electical or magnetic charge. Even water stationary in a pipe (or wet tree root), septic tank or field line has a magnetic charge. Here is an experiment for you. Take a very sensitive compass and walk around with it. Cross under power lines, over septic tanks, metal laying in or on the ground. Does the needle move? Is it possible for the subconcious will of the user to cause the needle to vary from magnetic North? Or to swing side to side if held vertically? You will note that few, if any, experienced woodsmen use a compass mounted in a knife handle, and go out of their way to avoid storing their compass with ferrous metal objects. I know better than to trust a compass reading taken in or near a vehicle.
 
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Brick/board breaking has zero to do with belief and everything to do with physics. Go to a demonstration where they perform breaks on multiple bricks, then ask them to remove the spacers and try the trick again. If they're smart they won't do it, if they believe they can they'll most likely end up with a broken hand and a pile of unbroken bricks. It's true that there are many areas where scientific understanding of physical and natural phenomena is incomplete, but belief just doesn't factor into the end result.

Almost forgot, there is a remote possibility that belief could play a role in quantum mechanics, as observation and perception seem to have a measurable effect on some quantum particles. I find it unlikely, but acknowledge that it is possible.

Not so much "belief" as the physical process of observation.

And yes, I am a card-carrying quantum mechanic.
 
What you are saying is akin to a person saying that you cannot get fire by rubbing two sticks together. Having never done it or seen it done, they don't believe it can be done. But members here do it regularly using a variety of materials and methods. Their sucess varies with their experience and material selection, but they prove it can be done to those who witness it.

What I'm saying is that I don't see any science behind the "positive" results, and that I have seen the method fail repeatedly, and can chalk up most of the "success" to luck or knowledge (whether conscious or sub-conscious). It's not a secret that human's are pattern seeking beings, and that often fall victim to confirmation bias. The original question was asking about the science behind the method, not simply personal experience.
 
This debacle of a thread should be closed.
At this point it has nothing at all to do with wilderness or survival (if it did in the first place).:(
 
This debacle of a thread should be closed.
At this point it has nothing at all to do with wilderness or survival (if it did in the first place).:(

You're probably right. Very much spun away from the original question.
 
well before it gets closed ill add my 2 cents. i was skeptical but found it to work on buried water lines with my eyes closed and holding the rods where i cant manipulate them with out it being obvious. I have also introduced it to a couple of others who were skeptical but found it worked for them. I think the best thing to take away from this is that we live in a big world and still have very little understanding in some areas and i find that exciting. Id like to really know how birds and fish navigate like they do using the magnetic field or smell. for crying out loud folks are still trying to figure out what consciousness is about. I find the topic interesting and have enjoyed this post and dont feel the least bit inclined to argue with folks who disagree. like i said i was skeptical too.
Josh
 
i've seen it work to many times to 'not believe' (ever what the hell that means). i have also done it myself. it's not "mystic or supernatural". it, i believe, (as was posted above) has something to do with electromagnetism. do i know the answer as to why it works? NO.
i guess some of us, sadly aren't fortunate enough to have had a mentor in our lives that continue to teach the 'old ways'...
 
Personally I would say fiction but then I live in desert country and have in 15 years never heard anyone mention dowsing.
I would assume that if there was any validity to it I would have heard someone mention it around here. Be that as it may, that's just my experience
obviously others have had different experiences with it.

My observations on this thread are:
1. The OP set it up as a "gotcha" and I would say it has backfired on him at this point
2. I believe that asking all these "successful" dowsing practitioners why they have not claimed James Randi's million is a valid question
3. I would like to know if any of our dowsers actually carry 2 pieces of bent copper wire into the woods with them as a practical way to locate water in the bush. If not, why not?
 
Personally I would say fiction but then I live in desert country and have in 15 years never heard anyone mention dowsing.
I would assume that if there was any validity to it I would have heard someone mention it around here. Be that as it may, that's just my experience
obviously others have had different experiences with it.

My observations on this thread are:
1. The OP set it up as a "gotcha" and I would say it has backfired on him at this point
2. I believe that asking all these "successful" dowsing practitioners why they have not claimed James Randi's million is a valid question
3. I would like to know if any of our dowsers actually carry 2 pieces of bent copper wire into the woods with them as a practical way to locate water in the bush. If not, why not?

1. Agree.
2. I posted Randi's specifications to claim his million above. Did you read it? My location of buried utilities and other obstructions has nothing to do with supernatural or the occult.
3. Where I live and camp, water is usually easy enough to find either in creeks or small springs. I don't need to look for buried utilities or other obstructions in the woods. I do use common woodslore knowledge to find hidden freshwater springs, but that has nothing to do with the supernatural either. If I did carry copper rods into the woods, I am sure that the backhoe would raise eyebrows.
 
I have assisted in some early studies. At the very most, I have all the dowsing skills of your average stone.

Ah, well. I'll have to settle for being pretty.

In these early studies, did you happen to witness someone sucessfully and repeatedly locating what they were attempting to detect? Were there any scientific based theories put forward to explain any successful dowsing, such as electromagnetics?
 
I once guided a blind dowser across an acre of bush (to keep him from getting a branch in the face). To my amazement he was able to navigate back to a spot where he had detected water. Go figure...
 
Not so much "belief" as the physical process of observation.

And yes, I am a card-carrying quantum mechanic.

Honestly, I probably phrased that badly. I wasn't trying to speak as any kind of expert, just to say that I didn't know enough about the subject to say if belief could or could not make any difference on a quantum level.

Getting back to the dowsing questions, I'd actually like to see some controlled tests with metal, power lines, etc. I'm not ridiculously well read about the subject, but I've never heard of any with that take on it. Based on the current research performed, the evidence seems to suggest that as a tool for locating water it simply does not hold up in controlled conditions. You can chalk me up as being of the mindset that it has more to do with pattern recognition and environmental clues than the motion of the rods themselves.
 
2. I posted Randi's specifications to claim his million above. Did you read it? My location of buried utilities and other obstructions has nothing to do with supernatural or the occult.

Aye sir, I have. Many times. I believe that your claim to detect underground utilities without prior knowledge of the area, in effect to "divine" the location of hidden items qualifies as "supernatural." I believe that most people would agree with me on that point despite your perceptions of your practice.
If nothing else I think you can agree that not everyone walks around going "sewer pipe, water main, power line, lost ark of the covenant, power line, power line, jimmy hoffa, water main, water main, power line, etc".
Even if you ascribe this ability to simply being just a little more "sensitive" than other folk, wouldn't you say that's just a little extra-ordinary?
I guess what I'm trying to get at is no matter what you call it, or what you attribute your ability to, most folk are going to see dowsing as being supernatural. Given that general attitude why not take a shot at the million?
 
This debacle of a thread should be closed.
At this point it has nothing at all to do with wilderness or survival (if it did in the first place).:(

Being able to find water is key for survival.

Personally I would say fiction but then I live in desert country and have in 15 years never heard anyone mention dowsing.
I would assume that if there was any validity to it I would have heard someone mention it around here. Be that as it may, that's just my experience
obviously others have had different experiences with it.

My observations on this thread are:
1. The OP set it up as a "gotcha" and I would say it has backfired on him at this point
2. I believe that asking all these "successful" dowsing practitioners why they have not claimed James Randi's million is a valid question
3. I would like to know if any of our dowsers actually carry 2 pieces of bent copper wire into the woods with them as a practical way to locate water in the bush. If not, why not?

1-Asking for any science out there is not a "gotcha".

2-Claiming there's nothing supernatural about a supernatural act is a cop-out to avoid performing in an objective test under controlled circumstances.



Both sides will be able to take something from this Popular Mechanics article:


Finding Water With A Forked Stick May Not Be A Hoax
Dowsing Data Defy the Skeptics

Read more: Finding Water With A Forked Stick May Not Be A Hoax - Popular Mechanics



Usually, the boundary between science and science fiction is as distinct as the difference between the 6 o'clock news and "The Simpsons." Wherever the line blurs, you're bound to find contentious debates. One of the longest-running of these disagreements centers on dowsing, a supposed sixth sense that enables people to find underground water using a forked branch, pendulum or pair of bent wires. There is no scientific reason why dowsing should work. Yet, it apparently works well enough and reliably enough to keep the practice alive.

The success of dowsers doesn't surprise the people who know the most about finding underground water, hydrogeologists for the United States Geological Survey (USGS). They point out that the United States is so water-rich you can get wet drilling just about anywhere, if you drill deep enough. Far harsher criticism of dowsing and dowsers comes from outside the mainstream scientific community. Two organizations, the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP), http://www.csicop.org/si, and the James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF), http://www.randi.org, are actually working to discourage the practice, which they both dismiss as paranormal nonsense. To make their point that dowsing is a sham each has staged demonstrations in which dowsers were asked to find buried pipes. Dowsers did no better than the laws of chance predict. JREF is so confident of its position it promises to pay $1.1 million to anyone who can "prove" dowsing works.

Yet Dowsers Flourish

Like bees unaware they are too aerodynamically challenged to fly, dowsers don't let the skeptics get them down. In fact, the ranks of dowsers have been steadily growing. Forty years ago, about 50 dowsers and curiosity seekers were drawn to Danville, Vt., for a 1-day National Dowsing Convention. That get-together led to the creation of the American Society of Dowsers (ASD), www.newhampshire.com/dowsers.org, which now counts about 4200 members. Lest you dismiss dowsing's popularity as just another New Age fad, take a close look at the 16th century drawing to the left. The men wearing traditional miners' clothing are holding the same type of forked stick in use by many dowsers today.

Now comes a massive set of data that suggests there may be some validity to dowsers' claims. The encouraging words are contained in a study financed by the German government and published in the Journal Of Scientific Exploration, http://www.jse.com/betz_toc.html, which is a peer-reviewed scientific journal published at Stanford University.

The project was conducted by the Deutsche Gesellschaft fur Technische Zusammenarbeit in the hope of finding cheaper and more reliable ways of locating drinking water supplies in Third World countries.

Researchers analyzed the successes and failures of dowsers in attempting to locate water at more than 2000 sites in arid regions of Sri Lanka, Zaire, Kenya, Namibia and Yemen over a 10-year period. To do this, researchers teamed geological experts with experienced dowsers and then set up a scientific study group to evaluate the results. Drill crews guided by dowsers didn't hit water every time, but their success rate was impressive. In Sri Lanka, for example, they drilled 691 holes and had an overall success rate of 96 percent.

"In hundreds of cases the dowsers were able to predict the depth of the water source and the yield of the well to within 10 percent or 20 percent," says Hans-Dieter Betz, a physicist at the University of Munich, who headed the research group.

"We carefully considered the statistics of these correlations, and they far exceeded lucky guesses," he says. What's more, virtually all of the sites in Sri Lanka were in regions where the odds of finding water by random drilling were extremely low. As for a USGS notion that dowsers get subtle clues from the landscape and geology, Betz points out that the underground sources were often more than 100 ft. deep and so narrow that misplacing the drill only a few feet would mean digging a dry hole.

As impressive as this success rate may seem, it doesn't do much to change the minds of skeptics. Their preference is to test dowsing under more controlled conditions. Back To The Lab

Anticipating this criticism, the German researchers matched their field work with laboratory experiments in which they had dowsers attempt to locate water-filled pipes inside a building. The tests were similar to those conducted by CSICOP and JREF, and similarly discouraging. Skeptics see the poor showing as evidence of failure. Betz sees the discrepancy as an important clue. He says that subtle electromagnetic gradients may result when natural fissures and water flows create changes in the electrical properties of rock and soil. Dowsers, he theorizes, somehow sense these gradients and unconsciously respond by wagging their forked sticks, pendulums or bent wires.

Low-Energy Sensor

There is ample evidence that humans can detect small amounts of energy. All creatures with eyes can detect extremely small amounts of electromagnetic energy at visible light wavelengths. Some researchers believe the dark-adapted human eye can detect a single photon, the smallest measurable quantity of energy. Biologists also have found nonvisual electric and magnetic sensing organs in creatures from bacteria to sharks, fish and birds. Physiologists, however, have yet to find comparable structures in humans.

Betz offers no theories of how dowsers come by their skill and prefers to confine his speculation to his data. "There are two things that I am certain of after 10 years of field research," he says. "A combination of dowsing and modern techniques can be both more successful, and far less expensive, than we had thought."

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/1281661

Interesting, but I'm still stuck on the fact that under controlled tests, dowsing doesn't work.
 
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