Dozier pro-guide as wilderness knife

[Ravaillac]

Question: would the Dozier pro-guide make a good wilderness knife?
On one hand Dozier knives are noted as top quality knives with excellent edge holding and craftmanship.
On the other hand, pro-guide is slightly hollow ground, advertised as being extremely hard (62 RC) and has a false edge on the top. All that makes me think of a hunter knife/skinner rather than a wilderness knife (used in wood working). I just fear it might somewhat too brittle. At first glance looks adapted to skinning, cooking and light wood working tasks.

1) Has anyone used that sort of knife for batoning, woodworking, "normal" hard use ?
2) Isn't that knife too hard to sharpen for extensive field use (if you have to rely on light field sharpening stone rather than a full size one)?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

1) Has anyone used that sort of knife for batoning, woodworking, "normal" hard use ?

I have done a lot of wood work with a K2, I would not try to chisel cut through a thick knot with it, but other than that it isn't a concern. Watch prying and heavy tip loads. Nice knife, handle is a little slick.

Isn't that knife too hard to sharpen for extensive field use (if you have to rely on light field sharpening stone rather than a full size one)?

His edges are really thin and narrow and thus sharpen readily. I do most of my work with small hand stones, 1x4". Unless you are heavily damaging the edge by chipping it out on bone/metal/rocks this isn't a concern.

-Cliff

 

[tidefan]

I have a Dozier Pro Guides knife, and I highly recommend it. Ive used mine since I got it in 1999 and it has been great. It holds it's edge dang near forever, and it sharpens up easy enough on a diamond stone. I just bought a second PGK just to have one to give to my daughter when we camp and backpack. they just don't get much better. Hope that helps, Jim

 

[Ravaillac]

Ok, I'll give it a try, thanks for advice.

 

[Bob Dozier]

The D2 blades leave this shop at 60 RC to + a few tenth's. We made several thousand at 62 and found that they would cut all day on tissue and paper but would loose the cutting edge if anything really hard was cut. Most makers give their hardness at 58 t0 60 or 60 t0 62. This is sloppy heat treatment. You can hold the hardness much closer than that. Anything softer than 60 will show noticeable lost of edge holding.
I have made thousands of D2 knives and tested many more D2 hunting most of the makers and feel that I have the edge on edge holding. I do not heat treat my hunting knives [ and most of them are just that] to cut steel bars and other things that are out of the ordinary but to cut the things that hunters cut.
I have been a knife maker a long time and did not make D2 my choice because of others but because I found it to be allround good steel.

Bob Dozier

 

[Cliff Stamp]

We made several thousand at 62 and found that they would cut all day on tissue and paper but would loose the cutting edge if anything really hard was cut.

Hard as in bone or metals, or thick plastic and dense wood? Was it controlled cutting or chopping into the harder materials?

-Cliff

 

[Bob Dozier]

Cutting, not chopping cliff. I'm talking about hunting knifes, not large choppers which few hunters have any use for. In reality, few hunters clean or process their deer, but have them done by professionals if they want good meat. This is 2005, not the turn of the century. I do not know of any hunters that need to cut plastic or metal in the woods. This is where hunting knives are really used, are they not? Your testing is fun and some times knowledgeable, but not allways comparible to real life. Let the guys that live in a different world than I live in buy these choppers.

Bob Dozier

I respect the guys that do process their own. But most of the deer killed today are in driving distance of processing plants. I grew up in south Louisiana and spent much of my time in the woods hunting and fishing and cleaning my own game . I know how. Today I would field dress my deer and have it cut and wraped.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

In reality, few hunters clean or process their deer, but have them done by professionals ...

It is different here, but it is (or was) a heavy farming community so people grew up butchering animals so a lot of people still process their own, often for one very obvious reason that you would never have animals commercially handled.

I do not know of any hunters that need to cut plastic or metal in the woods.

Not generally, however you do also make utility and tactical knives and people here don't have "hunting" knives as much as just knives, same as for filleting, everything from a Opinel to a worn down chef's knife. So what are the hard materials which damaged the edges on the knives, assuming they were all just hunting knives which you seem to imply, was it bone or dirt in the skin?

I have a D2 blade at 62 HRC, custom made by Mel Sorg, it is one of his hunting/utility designs, I have use it to cut hard materials many times, dense woods, plastics, metals, bone, etc. . I can't chop into metals/bone, but the edge will cut/carve them readily as long as it isn't side loaded, so no torquing.

I reprofiled it a few years back and no longer cut metals with it, the edge is now full to spine ground so it is ~3 degrees per side with usually a ~0.1 mm microbevel, so it would be hard to open a can without damage, but it still carves bone readily, cuts plastics, dense woods, etc. .

Lots of other makers run hunting knives very hard without problems which is why I assumed your comment meant other than pure hunting uses were damaging the edge.

-Cliff

 

[A. G. Russell]

Bob Dozier asked me to let you know that his computer is down and he will be back to this thread on Monday. A. G.

 

[knifetester]

Lots of other makers run hunting knives very hard without problems which is why I assumed your comment meant other than pure hunting uses were damaging the edge.

Do any of them exhibit the extreme edge holding that Dozier knives are known for? Are they ground as thin? Do they cut as well? Are the blades as optimally suited for cleaning game as Dozier's various offerings?

everything from a Opinel to a worn down chef's knife.

You can field dress a deer with a soup can if if you have to, stone tools have killed and dressed more game than steel probably. However, some knives are better suited than others, and Hunter's I know hold Dozier knives in high acclaim.

 

[Rainmaker870]

You can field dress a deer with a soup can if if you have to, stone tools have killed and dressed more game than steel probably. However, some knives are better suited than others, and Hunter's I know hold Dozier knives in high acclaim.

I'm one of those hunters, as a matter of fact. Never in my life have I had a knife go through so much hide and hair, without anything other than a simple wiping down, than my Dozier K2 General Purpose Hunter. I've also found Dozier's D2 surprisingly un-difficult to sharpen / reprofile (this was on a Model 6; not a hunter, but I wanted to try sharpening the top edge myself. It was a lot easier to do on Bob's knife than on some other knives of good reputation.)

I liked my K2 so much that I bought a couple of other Doziers... then I had one made to my own specs for a small gp/utility outdoors knife. None have disappointed in the cutting/edge-holding department; all of them do fine on outdoor things that have needed cutting; none of them have needed more than a little stropping in between jobs, and the stropping required has been precious little indeed. I have not, however, tried to cut wire, cinder blocks, stones, or an elk's leg bone with them. Yet.

Now - having said all that - I too am curious as to what Mr. Dozier says I shouldn't cut with his knives. Specifically, Bob, if I try to baton my Wilderness model through a frozen tree branch will it be ok?

 

[Bob Dozier]

Clift, I was raised in a small farming town and know that most of the hunters in the areas don't have hand made knives. So it doesn't really matter as much to most of them. $30 is a lot for most of them to spend on a hunting knife.
It matters not what other maker harden their knives to, I find that 60+ is the best hardness for my knives. I cut aluminum and hard hickory hammer handles to test on hard materials. There is no concrete in the hunting woods where I hunt. Mostmakers that do their own heat treatment do not have rock well testers and do not know what their hardness is. I know that some do, but do not rep. the majority
Rainmaker, the knives are yours and you can cut what ever you like. But if you break a blade hammering with a chunk of wood on a well ground very thin blade, I do not think that any maker will give you a new knife. I think that the wilderness knife will do the heavy wood cutting, as it is ground thicker. in this shop we find it hard to let our knives be very thick You seem like an intelligent guy, you can answer these questions your self. I do prize you as a customer and hope you aquire many other Dozier knives.
Cliff, I follow most of your threads if they don't get really long and grow into an augment with others. I think that you are a smart guy with a lot of time to spend on the forums, but as most others on the forums, I do not agree with all your views. Some I do. I did give you a couple of knives for your testing, so it is obvious that I respect a lot of your opinions and will follow your threads.
I will be around later in the week.

Bob D.

 

[skammer]

Clift, I was raised in a small farming town and know that most of the hunters in the areas don't have hand made knives. So it doesn't really matter as much to most of them. $30 is a lot for most of them to spend on a hunting knife.
Rainmaker, the knives are yours and you can cut what ever you like. But if you break a blade hammering with a chunk of wood on a well ground very thin blade, I do not think that any maker will give you a new knife. I think that the wilderness knife will do the heavy wood cutting, as it is ground thicker. in this shop we find it hard to let our knives be very thick You seem like an intelligent guy, you can answer these questions your self. I do prize you as a customer and hope you aquire many other Dozier knives.

Bob D.

I grew up skinning game with an $8 folder. This does not mean I prefered using it in that role and it certainly does not mean I wouldn't have bought a better blade to do the job. I was young and ignorant and poor. If someone bought me a blade with better steel and performance I would have used it.

If I am going to spend good money on a blade (especially custom) it had better do more than just skin game or else I will have to carry 2 knives. IF a blade doesn't get used because it will loose and edge with light use then its not utilitarian enough for outdoor use. Been there got that T-shirt.

MY blade had better be able to skin game, carve through hard wood with ease and be able to be batoned through a log with some torque. If a blade cannot do all this and without a makers guarantee then there is no sale.

There are makers who make blades who can do all this with a guarantee and which one can still shave arm hair with after all is said and done.

Skam

 

[Bob Dozier]

Skam
I don't know any makers that grind as thin as we do and guarantee their knives againest being broke by heavy hammering. We will grind thicker blades that will take abuse, but they do not sharpened or cut as well. We also use other steels that are tougher, but you loose some edge holding.
I am sure that you are good at cleaning game and would never need to chop your way through a deer to get its insides out. Most of the butchering gets done at a camp. I have never cleaned an elk, but talking to guys that do, find that they go ready with a small saw or small ax. Have You ever used one of our knives? If you do, You will like it so much that you will want to use it intelligently and not try to tear it up. You can abuse your car and it will not last long. Or you can take care of it and make just as many trips and it will still be in good condition.
You seem angry at me. I hope not to offend you, as there is too much of that on the forums now.

Bob D.
I hope that you become a Dozier user.

 

[Rainmaker870]

Rainmaker, the knives are yours and you can cut what ever you like. But if you break a blade hammering with a chunk of wood on a well ground very thin blade, I do not think that any maker will give you a new knife. I think that the wilderness knife will do the heavy wood cutting, as it is ground thicker. in this shop we find it hard to let our knives be very thick You seem like an intelligent guy, you can answer these questions your self. I do prize you as a customer and hope you aquire many other Dozier knives.

I hope I aquire some more too, Bob - they're pretty much right up my alley.
I wouldn't go pounding on one of the thin blades - that's not what I bought 'em for.

 

[sodak]

As long as expectations are set right up front, that's fine with me.

I love my big chopping blades that I can be foolish with, and I love my thin cutters that hold a great edge. I've got a K19, Delta Traveller, Arkansas Traveler, and a little flat ground drop point with lots of belly whose name eludes me right now. I love them all, but that little Arkansas traveller, man, that's a handy little knife! I can reset the edge on a ceramic rod in half a minute, and the whole works, sheath and all, drops right into my Carharrt work dungarees. Did I mention the great handle ergonomics? Love that D2, holds an edge for a long, long, long time!

K2 is next on my list. Tell me when they're in stock....

 

[skammer]

Bob,

No problem with you at all mate .

I am just stating that I prefer a blade that can skin and be pounded into submission at the same time. A blade ground so thin that has only one use for "ME" in the field (skinning) means I have to carry more than one blade as I need a blade I can pound on as well as skin with.

Its not my cup of tea to carry special use type pieces of gear. I much prefer jack of all trades type of equipment when possible.

When hunting large game I carry and axe and a saw already let alone 3 types of blades etc.....

No dissrespect implied.

Skam

 

[Brian Jones]

Bob,

Skam is just contentious by nature online.

We've all learned to love him anyway....

He is an excellent contributor to the Wilderness forum here.

~B.

 

[skammer]

Bob,

Skam is just contentious by nature online.

We've all learned to love him anyway....

He is an excellent contributor to the Wilderness forum here.

~B.

When I look back on my posts they do have a nice layer of crust on them don't they. :grumpy:

Please, look past the crust. :foot:

Skam

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I don't know any makers that grind as thin as we do and guarantee their knives againest being broke by heavy hammering.

I have a few puukkos which are more acute at the edge and ground out of thinner stock and will respond fine to baton work. A 1/16" carbon steel blade with a high flat grind is near impossible to break batoning, with that size of knife anyway, see Jim Aston's work for example. The biggest risk is turning the edge on a pin knot and they are typically very thin 0.010"-0.020".

[very hard hunting knives]

Do any of them exhibit the extreme edge holding that Dozier knives are known for? Are they ground as thin? Do they cut as well?

Alvin's knives 1/4" back from the edge are thinner than the K2 at the edge, Phil's are thinner at the edge, Sorg's are of thinner stock and thinner at the edge. Phil runs harder and higher alloy steels (S90V, 10V, 15V) , Sorg used to run D2 at 62 HRC, Alvin usually runs 1095 and M2 full hard.

Wilson doesn't like D2 at 62 HRC either, he found it chipped too readily for him, he was really surprised by the behavior of the Sorg custom I have, I keep meaning to send it to him. He does however run others steels significantly harder.

Alvin doesn't like D2 as a blade steel at all, it can't take his edge profile. I like it in that profile but I use knives differently than him and run a different sharpness, specifially the Sorg slices forever with a 100 grit AO finish, but it much more coarse than Alvin like his edges.

Are the blades as optimally suited for cleaning game as Dozier's various offerings?

Lots of people use the them for such work, Alvin's are used by commercial meat cutters, Phil sells a lot to hunters (he is more fishing/hunting than utility), and that was a large section of Mel's market.

I can carve hickory all day long with the above blades without chipping them, and pop cans are no problem for most unless I have altered the profile drastically. I have been doing some bone carving lately, making pins and similar. You can cut a lot of hard materials with hard edges, just avoid impacts and no torques.

With the ZDP Calypso Jr. (~65 HRC) I easily cut a coke can into strips, no damage to the edge, still shaved. Chipped out on a can of mushrooms, but the edge was really acute ~10 degrees. I'll try it again with a micro bevel once I carry it for awhile and wear the edge back a bit.

With just woods, I go way down, ~5 degrees per side or so, maybe ironwoods would be a problem, nothing else seems to be though (hickory, birch, oak). I don't know if that profile could cut pop cans or not, I'll try it later on before I reset some edges.

It matters not what other maker harden their knives to...

Well to a user it does obviously, as a maker well I talk to makers about other knives all the time, they are usually very interested in what other people are doing with steels and grinds. There is always the possiblity you could learn, and in any case more information is always of benefit as you see where you stand.

-Cliff