Dozier pro-guide as wilderness knife

[Nordic Viking]

Mr. Dozier,

Good looking knives and website :thumbup: . Please update your website address in your profile.

 

[alco141]

as far as the hunting blade is concerned, i have visited more than a few hunting camps in the usa and a few other countries. by and large most cutting is done with a knife, hard stuff like bone is done with an axe/machete/saw. so i think that mr dozier is right on target as far as his knowledge that hunting knives are for hunting, not chopping. they are game processing tools. in a meat packing plant do they chop with a knife? no they use a cleaver. this is the purpose for which the tool is designed. if you want to cut through concrete blocks and car fenders, maybe you need to carry a jack hammer.

alex

 

[sodak]

The question of the original poster was not if a hunting knife could chop through concrete. He was asking if a particular model Dozier was suitable as a general purpose knife, including batoning, heavy woodcraft, etc. Bob already indicated that these tasks were out of scope and not appropriate for this knife.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

if you want to cut through concrete blocks and car fenders...

This is quite a jump from :

1) Has anyone used that sort of knife for batoning, woodworking, "normal" hard use ?

To those curious I spent some time trying to cut a pop can with the full hard 1095 blade described in the above. I could make cuts without damage but it was really difficult and I had to be really slow and deliberate.

What was interesting is that when it damaged it tended to deform rather than chip, which sounds odd considering the hardness, but the edge is so thin and acute that it can deform and not crack.

I can carve hardwoods with it no problem though, again no chopping and no torquing, end grain as well, not just the easy cuts, lumber (hardwood flooring) as well as fresh woods. It can't be used for baton work though.

In regards to the hunting knives, lots serve dual purposes, the Mora 2000 for example and most puukkos are used as both hunting and bushcraft knives. These are also not overbuilt knives with thick grinds.

-Cliff

 

[Brian Jones]

Bob,

I know you didn't design the knife for heavy woodcraft, batoning, and other abuse, but having owned (and still owning your blades), and speaking from a wilderness survival view (i.e. sh!t hits the fan and all I have left in my hand is a Dozier), I'd feel mighty confident using one of your knives for these things in a pinch without worry. That's how good your blades are. When I am in the thick of things, I don't worry about warranties or anything else: I need to get certain tasks like shelter, etc. done. And, I know, for a fact, from personal experience, that your knives can handle pretty much anything I can throw at them, and then some. That's from real world use, not backyard tests. I trust your blades all the way.

Thanks for making such stellar knives, and for being the inspiration that got so many of us into knives in the first place!

Regards,

~Brian.

 

[Gossman Knives]

Bob, I don't personally own one of your knives but would love to get one someday. With your experience and expertise at making knives, I would never question or worry whether your knives are up to anything they would be put up against. Keep up the great work!
Scott

 

[knifetester]

Cliff, I think comparing the Dozier Pro-Guide to the Johnson paring knife is a bit off. The Pro-Guide should ahve a MUCH broader scope of work, it is simply a much thicker knife. I suspect Dozier heat treated D2 is much tougher than full hard 1095.

Here is a review of the Dozier pro_guide copied from another site with permission of the author (Chad).

Dozier Review by Chad Part I

After hearing many great things about Bob Dozier and his knives, I bought one. A small Agent model. I bought it from Knifeart.com, and was very pleased with the service.

When the knife arrived I was impressed by the quality of the fit and finish. The micarta work in particular seemed very well done. I liked the overall size of the knife too, it was right between my small and large Sebenzas size wise. The edge was very, very sharp it easily push shaved hair, and cut copy paper against the grain, yet running my thumb across the edge revealed a definite amount of toothiness.


The horizontal sheath was very well done, and held the knife in a secure manner, yet allowed for a quick draw. Now that the Wilderness sheath is available, that is the option I would choose.

So, knife in hand I set out to do a little cutting, and hopefully not of myself. I like to start any new knife off in the place second most familiar to me, the kitchen. (If you want to know about the place most familiar, you'll have to ask my girlfriend )

I like to start any new knife off cutting up vegetables, to me this is the fastest way to check both the edge and primary grind geometery.

I started off with some tomatoes (becuase that's what I needed to cut up for dinner).
The sharp, tooth edge of the Dozier allowed it to laser through them

The handle was very secure when wet, which suprised me given how smooth the micrata was polished.

I then switched to some mushrooms and carrots, again because they were on the menu.

The Agent really did a nice job on the mushrooms, again the Dozier edge just zipped though. The handle design and overall design of the knife make it very to control the tip for neat, fine work.

I then moved on to the test that is most dispositive for me, the onion test. I know that if a knife slices onions well, it has a good primary grind geometery for the things I use a knife for. Because a big vadallia onion is slightly binding on a knife (the same way a big potato, or turnip is) it really lets me know how the knife is ground.

Well, to be honest, the Agent did not do so well. It took quite a bit of effort (compared to other knives I use for the same thing) to get the spine though. I found this perplexing given the great things that I have heard from people I greatly respect about Dozier knives.

Well the answer was quite simple, the knife I had selected, the Agent, is a tactical model, designed for carry for utility roles, but also suited for self defense, as evidenced by the false edge and spear point. The Tactical Dozier models are not ground as thin as the hunting models, so I was not seeing the kind of performance I expected.

Well, that is clearly the case of me choosing the wrong knife for the kind of work I do, nothing wrong with the knife at all.

So I traded off the Agent, and got another, slightly larger model instead. I selected the Professional Guide Knife, the model of that Hoodoo recommended to me.

I got the knife on the forums from Lenny. I have traded with and bought knives from Lenny on several occasions and knew him to be a reputable and honest man. Basicly a great guy to deal with. When Lenny says a knife is in mint condition, you can rest assured that it is mint.

 

[knifetester]

Part II

When the knife arrived I was very pleased with the overall package.
The size range (4.5" blade) is one that I find exceptionally useful. The hollow grind was ground much thinner and deepr than the Agent, and in fact the PGK is thinner behind the edge than my Sebenza!

The natural color Micarta with a black loop is elegant and beautiful, it was shaped very nicely and fit my hand well. The sheath was the vertical carry model "B" kydex. Again, the kydex work was great, a very secure fit, and it carried nicely on the belt. A little higher than I prefer, and the belt loop is a little small for my wide belts, but that is a matter of personal preference. Again, I would order the Wilderness sheath for this knife if I had the option to do so.

On the day that the knife arrived I was making beef stew for 15 people. well, perfect timing as far as I was concerned.

The edge was very sharp, but not as sharp as the edge Dozier had put on the Agent. Lenny had used the PGK a little, so that is understandable. I wanted to see how the Dozier D2 sharpened up anyway.

So I broke out my trusty Spyderco 204 Sharpmaker and gave the PGK 25 alternating strokes on each side of the 15 degree course corner rods, then another 25 per side on the flat side course stones at 15 degrees. The last few strokes I used a very light pressure on the stone.

At this point the PGK was hair popping sharp. It push shaved hair above the skin, and could fillet copy paper easily.

I began by chunking 2 five pound sirloin roasts into stew sized chunks. The PGK cut though the flesh effortlessly. This was truly a knife in its element. It just zipped through with very little pressure, making precise, sure cuts.

I had intended to leave the meat chunks a little larger, but the Dozier was so efficient at slcing through flesh that I just kept on cutting. I have always enjoyed using fine tools that performed exceptionally well at their chosen task, and this was the case with the Dozier cutting meat.


Very pleased with the way the PGK chunked out the meat, I switched to the infamous onion test. I was very happy with the way the Doizer worked this time.

The deeper hollow grind really allowed the PGK to cut well. The spine is still a little thick to be optimal here, and flat ground knives are usually better suited for this task, but the Dozier performed very well.


It made short work of 4 big Vadaillia onions, the handle remained secure and comfortable during use. So I then broke out the big guns and started on the root vegetables, namely parsnips, carrots and potatoes. Yep, chopping up tubers with a Dozier, I know that I am on the edge. Crazy really, but I felt the knife was up to the challenge.

Here the knife did decently well, especially considering how thick the spine is. For this type of work the knife that is optimal is a very thin, flat ground knife with a very keen edge. My tool of choice: The Victorinox 4" Paring knife ($2.99 on sale at SMKW).

Given its thick spine, the Dozier did quite well. It has a nice amount of heft, and fills the hand nicely. In tasks where edge sharpness is critical and binding not an issue, like meat cutting, rope, etc. the Dozier performs fabulously.

On binding chores, things like root vegtables, some cardboard products and wood, the hollow grind and thick spine are a disadvantage.

In sum, the PK is a very nicely balanced and well rounded knife. Though it is optimized for flesh cutting, as can be expected of a hunting knife, it held its own during other tasks.

I still have to use the PGK for woodcraft before I would feel comfortable relying on it in a wilderness situation, and I will report back with the results.

A new twist in the plot is that Bob Dozier is now offering convex grins on many models on a cyustom basis. In fact, Hoodoo has the PGK with a convex grind. That seems like an even more well rounded choice, combining the strength and cutting performance of the convex grind with the quality of a Dozier.

That is something that I intend to look into in the future as well!!!

 

[Gossman Knives]

Thanks for sharing knifetester. Now I'll have to get my wife to make some venison stew, I'm hungary.
Scott

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Cliff, I think comparing the Dozier Pro-Guide to the Johnson paring knife is a bit off.

I wasn't comparing them directly as replacements, just citing that knife as one of several I have which are both very hard and can cut very hard materials and are not overbuilt, specifially in contrasts to the reference to D2 at 62 HRC being restricted to a paper cutter.

While this particular knife from Alvin isn't a meat cutting profile (the handle would not be ergonomic for extended use, and the blade too short), he does use the same steel stock and thickness and primary grind and edge profile on the knives made for butchering.

He has started using full height convex grinds recently, I have one of those as well. He runs a secondary edge bevel as otherwise it would be insane to sharpen, M2 full hard. I would prefer the hollow grinds for knives of that type, the convex ones do have a broader scope of work though, they are much more robust at the edge.

The Pro-Guide should ahve a MUCH broader scope of work, it is simply a much thicker knife.

Bob's comments actually put a more restricted scope of work, especially with the 62 HRC versions, he references in the negative examples of materials that I cut all the time with this knife and the others I noted.

While the paring blade is kind of thin, there isn't much that I won't cut with it, and the things I would avoid are those that people freak out and call abusive anyway (digging, nail cutting, etc.).

The only thing that I would not do with it bushcraft wise is baton, it is way to short anyway (~2" blade), but even if it was longer it would be problematic to hammer on a full hard blade.

I don't even know if the handle would stay stable, the edge would just explode if it hit even a small knot, and the blade would likely crack apart on twisted wood. Plus the very thin spine would cut into the baton readily so much of the effort would be wasted.

In comparison the K2 can be used to baton a lot of wood, sticking to wooden batons and avoiding heavy pin knots, and severe grain twisting. I don't think I would have much of a problem with it, but on most spruce I would be forced to multiple split to avoid knots.

I suspect Dozier heat treated D2 is much tougher than full hard 1095.

It is fairly brittle, but D2 isn't overly tough either, I would not use either for anything which required flexibility or impact. Alvin suggests other steels for that, like L6, and as far as I know doesn't actually make such knives. Sorg used to and didn't use D2, he ran 5160 for his large choppers and tried a few blades in 3V including one really nice one. I don't think Wilson has made any large working blades outside of a few rope cutters, he focuses on small utility blades, hunters, fishing and kitchen knives.

...I traded off the Agent

I adjusted the edge profile so it cuts fairly well on shallow media, not the ideal steel for that type of knife (stout utility) but it has been through a lot of use and is growing on me, I don't even dislike the handle that much anymore. I like the K2 more as a cutting tool but my brother favors the Agent for utility work. I like the looks of the small paring/whittler pattern. I am leaning towards getting Krein to grind something similar with a custom grind which is far deeper than the standard one Dozier runs.

-Cliff

 

[Stepa]

This discussion has taken a few unusual turns; I will not follow the trend and instead will try to answer your questions.

I am a proud owner of KS-3. This knife was bought specifically for outdoor/ wilderness use and has seen about 50 days of rain and shine with me beginning February this year.

During the course of this time I was lucky enough to attend Tom Browns School and apply skills learned in the field. Here is a list of things I’ve done with my KS-3

Built bow drills and hand drills and was able to start the fire with them (chopping involved)
Built debris huts and slept in them (chopping involved)
Cleaned fish and ate it.
Cleaned game and ate it

This covers three out of five essentials for wilderness survival.( Fire, Shelter and Food with Water and Clothing being the other two)

I am not sure what sort of woodworking you have in mind, but I can easily carve a bowl and a spoon using KS-3 alone. The edge retention is superb and if you don’t let it get too dull, there shouldn’t be a problem sharpening it with light stone.

I’ve dropped the knife onto concrete tip down, inadvertently of course, the tip was fine. For chopping I used smaller logs and hit the back of the blade driving it into larger logs which split the latter in half. I opened cans with fruit with this knife. It is still standing strong.

Let me tell you something I don’t like about it. It’s the sheath. I bought the regular kind and the only reason I don’t have the wilderness sheath yet is that I can’t part with my KS-3. I resent taking anything else outdoors for I know that this knife will not fail me no matter what. And since I am usually out every weekend, well almost, the sheath will wait till it gets really cold out here.

So to fully answer your question I’ll tell you this: If tomorrow is…….(fill in the blank) KS-3 will be the knife on my belt.

I hope this helps.

Stepa.

P.S. This should really be in front…
Bob, thank you very much for making something I can depend on with my life.

 

[banthony]

I realize that I am very much a novice in comparison to Cliff and his vast experience with knives, axes, and their interaction with wood, concrete, steel, bending angles etc. I also have learned things from reading Cliff's reviews. I seldom resist one.
However, I like knives. I am interested in knives. I buy knives. I sharpen my own knives. I use knives. I read about knives. I have owned over 100 knives as a rough estimate and fully understand that does not in itself make me any part of an expert on knives or anything else. I also understand that is a paltry number of knives owned in comparison to many of the knife owners that particiapate in this forum. I offer it only as a reference point.
I own a Dozier knife, a K2. It is a very well made knife that has outstanding fit and finish and holds an edge very well. I have used it quite a lot and have never been disappointed with the results. I have never attempted to cut a concrete block with it nor have I attempted to drive it into a post and stand on it and I have never put it in a vise and intentionally attempted to break it. I have other knives that I own and some of them I would rate as good, some not as good and there are a few I might even choose over the K2 although it would be a difficult choice.
All of that is not my point. (whew!, finally! I am sure you are saying). My point is this; Cliff does an outstanding job of reviewing knives, however, just as Mr. Dozier stated, in my opinion, much of Cliff's tests are over the top and of not much real value in practical use of most knives owned by most people. I am not saying that there is not real value in his testing of Survival type knives and would be the first to agree that if I were going to be choosing a knife to cut down a tree and build a shelter and a fire to survive with, I would choose a larger, heartier knife than I would to simply field dress a deer or any other type of game. I am hoping I do not have to make that decision.
I have to say, however, that I find it rude of Cliff in the manner in which he comes precariously close to insulting outstanding knife makers and knife owners who do not agree with his assessment of the value of a knife or a type of steel, or a blade angle.
Cliff, please, get over yourself. You are a interesting contributor to this forum. You are not the know all, be all knife god you seem to believe you are.
I for one would have been much more interested in what Bob Dozier had to say regarding his selection of D2 as the only steel he chooses to use rather than having him feel he has to respond to your redundant questions in order to defend his choice. His comments on whatever topic he chose to share with us would have been welcome to me and I am sure others. Your immediate condescending response did not allow him to expand on the topic in any manner. I realize you have every right to ask whatever you choose to any poster, including Bob Dozier. I find your lack of respect, however, distasteful.

I feel certain that you will take exception to these comments, however, they remain my take on your manner of ruining an opportunity to learn about a knife which I happen to like. You can respond in any manner you choose,or not, I am finished and will not respond further.

Bob Anthony

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I feel certain that you will take exception to these comments ...

No, I appreciate you took the time to post and it was clear and well thought out, and your conclusions are easy to understand based on a perspective which seems rather clear, which I don't share, but a difference in background could easily explain that and I can see why you would have the opinion you do especially based on what I have heard about me second hand.

Back to the knife, I never critized the K2 for its ability to not cut concrete, support body weight prying or anything so extreme, nothing of the type was in fact ever mentioned, my restriction in regards to the question asked was I would avoid heavy batoning into suspect wood which Dozier himself noted he would not recommend. Dozier was the one who brought up the chipping in cutting hard materials, not me.

My side contention was to his statement that D2 at 62 HRC could not hold its edge except on tissue or paper, based on what I have seen this isn't true, which is why I asked for details to understand where the difference origionated. Mel Sorg ran D2 at 62 HRC for years, and his knives were not restricted to paper and tissue cutters, Alvin Johnson and Phil Wilson also run very hard steels in very thin profiles and they are not so restricted either.

As for what I do in the reviews it is mainly on user request not based on what I think a knife should be able to do. Go back ten years or so when the reviews started, you will find people asking for the extreme things I do with some knives, either that or they attempt to duplicate some performance claim being used to promote the knife. The concrete block chopping for example was origionally done on request (publically) by a custom maker, it isn't something I thought up, but I do think it has its merits for some knives which can see heavy accidental impacts in brush clearing.

If you don't find parts useful don't read them, if there is something you would like to see which isn't done then ask about it or sign up for the passaround and you can check it out yourself and add your perspective which I will add directly into the review if you want.

-Cliff

 

[Bob Dozier]

Cliff if you were not here it would be dull. I take no offence to your comments but sometimes think that you go beyond the usefullness of a knife in the inviroment it was intended to be used in. Sometimes it is just a pleasure to use a small, thin, very sharp knife that feels really good in your hand.
Banthony, thank you for defending me. It feels really good to have friends that stand up for you. Cliff has a rite to the kind of knife he wishes to carry. If this is sometimes questionable, over look it.Cliff does spend a lot of time here and adds a lot to the forums even if he chaps some us sometimes.
Cliff, I never chipped the blades, only the fine serrations at the cutting edge.
Bob D.
It's a small mind that can think of only one way to spell a word.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Sometimes it is just a pleasure to use a small, thin, very sharp knife that feels really good in your hand.

Yeah, here is my current main EDC :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/images/aj_paring_side.jpg

1095, full hard, full hollow grind, ~0.060" stock, edge ~5 degrees per side. I usually rotate this along with whatever I am currently reviewing.

I never chipped the blades, only the fine serrations at the cutting edge.

That's probably one of the reasons for the differences in perspective, I run them at high polishes when cutting hard materials, usually fine ceramic, +CrO if I have the time, +plain leather, +plain paper if I really have the time. Sorg buffed them, Johnson uses various fine benchstones.

Very hard steels at a rough finish on hard materials is not a good combination, works nice on soft stuff like ropes though, I left a 62 HRC D2 blade with a 100 grit AO finish, ~5 degree edge, it cut 2000 pieces of 3/8" hemp with no sign of slowing down.

-Cliff

 

[Blues]

Bob Dozier, you're a gentleman and a scholar (and, I might add, a helluva knifemaker.) Oh yeah, I'm proud to call you friend, too!

 

[Bob Dozier]

Blues
Come see Dan and I at the Dozier web site.

Bob D.
Mister D2

 

[Thomas Linton]

It's a small mind that can think of only one way to spell a word.

Hear, hear. (Or is it "hir, hir"? )

I love my Dozier and have used it for batoning a couple of times with no ill effects. Of course, I was always taught to watch for knots and respect the tool. ("Tough as a pine knot" was an expression common in my youth.)

 

[Blues]

Blues
Come see Dan and I at the Dozier web site.

Bob D.
Mister D2

Bob,

I check in their daily, even if I haven't been posting much of late.