DPMS vs Rock River

Rugers work but are nowhere near as accurate and can't be made to be as accurate as AR's can. I can outshoot every mini-14 I have ever seen, with a 10.5" AR. Plus, Ruger mags, if you can even find them are 3 or 4 times the price of AR mags and you cant even get 30 round Ruger mags (factory) for under $75 or $100 each!!

Ruger is fine for plinking, but for serious duty.... PASS.

No offense meant.


GregS said:
Great advice!!!! Or just get a mini14. One other thing is this, you will hear people belly ache about the mini14's aftermarket magazines being prone to failure. Factory 20 rounders are available from Ruger now! And ProMag makes a great, cheap and effective aftermarket magazine, everything else can kiss my grits, now if only those bastids at Ruger would wise up and make some factory 10 rounders....
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DEA and many other agencies might not agree that RRA is crap. That being said, I only built an RRA lower and have a custom setup 10.5" upper (Noveske, LaRue). LMT, Noveske, and Colt are good to go on the full built models. But you're gonna pay for it.



tinman44 said:
no offense but the experts here are of the knife knowledge, kinda the wrong place to ask. that being said dpms is crap and rock river is less crap that dpms. there i said it. go with m&p, lmt, noveske, colt. those arent necesarily in order of preference just how i recalled them.
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Colt and LMT are the only top tier manufacturors IMO. They are the only companies that produce to a higher standard and test to that standard. Colt (and their subsidiary Diemaco) and LMT actually make their own components, assemble them and test them before they ship them out. Colt uses ER Shaw barrel blanks and LMT uses Mike Rock barrels. All others may or may not give you a quality product. Stag/CMT make their own parts and a lot of RRA parts too. Stag has had problems putting the parts together at times. Make sure you have a chrome-lined barrel and it's still a crap shoot on whether you get a good rifle or not. I'd be really nervous about buying an AR right now because everyone is trying to kick them out to make money. Get backordered on a Colt 6920 or an LMT Defender 2000 and wait it out would be my advice.

(DPMS is mud in most black rifle circles. I've personally seen more fails on their part than any other manufacturor. That doesn't mean you can't get a good DPMS rifle though, it's just not as sure of a thing as it is with Colt or LMT.) S&W M&P, Sabre, Noveske etc may be great but cost as much or more and aren't as established as Colt and LMT. YMMV
 
MNJON said:
Rugers work but are nowhere near as accurate and can't be made to be as accurate as AR's can. I can outshoot every mini-14 I have ever seen, with a 10.5" AR. Plus, Ruger mags, if you can even find them are 3 or 4 times the price of AR mags and you cant even get 30 round Ruger mags (factory) for under $75 or $100 each!!

Ruger is fine for plinking, but for serious duty.... PASS.

No offense meant.
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No offense taken. The price for factory mags is high but worth it for the peace of mind. Your statement about mini14's not being able to be made as accurate as an AR isn't true I'm afraid. If you meant out of the box I agree 100%, I don't think a mini14 will make smaller groups than any AR. But I can rest assured that my mini14 will group tighter than any rifle with a 10.5" barrel, let a lone an AR. You didn't address an AR's reliability when compared to a mini14? Accuracy is fine and good but reliability in any weapon is of the up most importance, right behind its safety features. I like AR's, they're fun and feel good in hand to me, just different strokes for different folks. Sorry to take your thread off topic:D The important thing is that we both like Busse's.:D
 
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the best bet is to customize. and im sorry but whoever said the people here are more for knife knowledge are mistaken. i know little about knives and a hell of alot more about guns. it doesn't matter if you get a rr or a dpms lower just make sure u got a noveske upper (which the 1st gens were made from a DPMS upper and were considered the best AR's money could buy, you can argue that all you want, but if youve never shot one or know someone who has you can't say anything)
 
I'd go with CMMG... they will build exactly what your looking for.... Next best thing to building it yourself.
 
Greg:

AR's run 100% IF the operator knows how to take care of them and they need to be run wet, not dry. I have not ever seen an AR fail to function when the guy running it knew his weapon and what it takes to keep one ticking. W E T...... that's key.... WET is always good!! :)

I have not yet seen a Mini 14 group under an inch at 100.... My 10.5 will do .75 inch groups all day long when the good scope is on top of it. The best Mini I've seen did about 1.5" groups. Icky! YMMV


GregS said:
No offense taken. The price for factory mags is high but worth it for the peace of mind. Your statement about mini14's not being able to be made as accurate as an AR isn't true I'm afraid. If you meant out of the box I agree 100%, I don't think a mini14 will make smaller groups than any AR. But I can rest assured that my mini14 will group tighter than any rifle with a 10.5" barrel, let a lone an AR. You didn't address an AR's reliability when compared to a mini14? Accuracy is fine and good but reliability in any weapon is of the up most importance, right behind its safety features. I like AR's, they're fun and feel good in hand to me, just different strokes for different folks. Sorry to take your thread off topic:D The important thing is that we both like Busse's.:D
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DAMN....I just bought a DPMS AP4 off of Gun Broker... What can I do to this gun to make it more reliable??? Here's what I was thinking of adding; an MGI defender extractor booster since I primarily shoot steel cased wolf 5.56 or the Bushmaster piston conversion kit to enhance overall reliability. What is the main malfunction with DPMS? overall fit and finish seem to be on par with the Stag that I used to own.
 
My personal use with this type of weapon is extensive, so here’s my 2 cents. The RRA will be fine for the purpose you describe; however, if he will be in harms way, order one made by Dave Lauck at D&L Sports (dlsports.com). His pistols and rifles are coveted by special operations personnel. In my opinion, they are second to none. Price comes in a distant second when your life is on the line.
 
As for the front sight, I think it depends on what he wants to use the rifle for. For me, in the optimal world, I would get an AR with no sights and purchase some nice flip ups for the front and rear. It is my impression, but I don't know for a fact, that the standard AR front sight will be seen in a scope or red dot sight. This would be less than ideal for me.

If its a home defense type gun flip ups or standard sights would probably work well but a red dot sight would be faster. Both would give redundancy in case of battery failure. For varmint hunting a decent scope would be the trick with flip ups for redundancy if he decides he wants them.

I do not currently own an AR-15, I cant afford one, (I have an SU-16 on order, it was supposed to come in yesterday /sigh. It was then supposed to be today, /sigh. Now I get to wait until Friday at the earliest, /sigh.) so take what I write with a grain of salt.

It is my understanding that the S&W M&P ARs are made by Stag Arms. Rock River will probably have a better trigger then a DPMS or Bushmaster and probably will be made with tighter tolerances for better accuracy out of the box. Having said that, you can always purchase after market drop in match and possibly adjustable trigger groups for any standard AR lower. You can basically spend whatever you want and can make any base AR into a very accurate target rifle.

The big questions right now would be, what does he intend to use it for, and what is actually available? In Houston some of the gun stores are starting to gouge semi-automatic rifle prices. One shop increased the price on every semi by over $200 each in just on week. The online stores I sometime order from are basically all out of stock on semi-autos.
 
LMT....2800 rounds of British 62grain ss109, with no cleaning, just some Mobile1...still running. I'm not going to clean her untill she stop.:D
 
thatmguy said:
I asked the same type question to a buddy who is LEO/SWAT/EOD/etc.

Rock River was the best performer he'd seen, and his team and men have put thousands of rounds through several brands.

If I was in the market, that is what I'd get.

Somewhere there are some testing reports of various breands/models, and the RR came out on top.
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my experience as well. RR is way better. Most receivers are the same, it all depends on the build. I have a RR platform custom built and it rocks. My M4 is good but no better than the custom RR platform.
 
WVHILLS said:
DAMN....I just bought a DPMS AP4 off of Gun Broker... What can I do to this gun to make it more reliable??? Here's what I was thinking of adding; an MGI defender extractor booster since I primarily shoot steel cased wolf 5.56 or the Bushmaster piston conversion kit to enhance overall reliability. What is the main malfunction with DPMS? overall fit and finish seem to be on par with the Stag that I used to own.
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The primary issue I've seen in person is the BCG bolt carrier group is not up to spec. Poorly or nonstaked carrier keys that are soft as butter. The bolts aren't MP test nor shot peened, so they may be more prone to breakage. They didn't use the proper black extractor insert, either. There are other issues but most problems stem from a bad BCG. You can order an LMT BCG for $129 and then keep the DPMS bolt, cam pin, retaining pin and firing pin for a back up. Just be sure and change out the bolt's extractor spring and insert with one from BCM http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Extractor-Spring-Uprade-Kit-p/bcm%20extractor%20spring%20upgrade.htm and then sell the carrier for a few $. The BCM BCG at the above link is really good too but out of stock.
 
Rock River, man, all the way. DPMS guns are... decent... but unless you're willing to spend the big bucks for something from LWRC or Noveske, RRA is the best you'll find. I have mine all tricked out (Brownells parts and springs throughout with the factory origionals acting as spares, MIAD grip, MagPul trigger guard, Troy rear sight, Aimpoint, etc) and I LOVE IT. I've always been a pistolero, but this rifle has truly impressed me. I like it better than any Bushmaster, DPMS, Colt or S&W I've ever shot. The only rifle I have that I like more is my LWRC M6 in 6.8mm, with the same modifications.
 
Thanks everyone for your responses. They are most valued. My buddy is on a budget, as is most of here. Personally I have experience shooting a Colt CAR15 and a RR M4 A2 and have not had any problems with either weapon. I am trying (hoping) to get the Colt from my stepmother who is in possession of my deceased dad's Colt CAR15.

BTW, my father-in-law employed a CAR15 in Nam and he loved it. I am not sure who the manufacture was, but he loved it.

Thanks again and Happy Thanksgiving to all.
 
MNJON said:
DEA and many other agencies might not agree that RRA is crap. That being said, I only built an RRA lower and have a custom setup 10.5" upper (Noveske, LaRue). LMT, Noveske, and Colt are good to go on the full built models. But you're gonna pay for it.
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so you agree
 
HeadKicker said:
I am a member of DEA's FAST team. DEA, worldwide, has all of it's weapons made by Rock River. On our specialized team we have some of the modified RR uppers on our M-4s. My little brother joined PD in Arizona and wanted an AR. I ordered him a RR. Never used or handled a DPMS, so cannot compare it to RR. IF I was to purchase my own AR, it would be a RR.
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Do you guys have Vang Comp shotguns?
 
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