Drop point all around hunter and utility knife?

JM2

JM2

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Mar 11, 2013
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Im on the hunt for a new knife. I need some suggestions.

The usage will be all around utility and hunting. I wont abuse it, but I will use it a lot. I want something of the order of 1095 steel or case's chrome vanadium. Soft enough I can sharpen it easily with an arkansas stone, but not so soft it wont stay sharp any decent length of time.

The style I want is pretty specific, to which these fall into

buck 192
fallkniven F1
loveless classic drop point hunter.
Fallkniven NL5L looks great, but its VG10 which ive heard is hard to sharpen with a traditional stone

I have had a buck 192, but it wouldnt hold an edge.

The size has to be larger than the loveless, its just too small in the handle. the buck was close, but a touch big. I havent handled a fallkniven F1 of the NL5L

It has got to be a drop point. Prefer carbon steel, but cant be a super steel that has to have a diamond sharpening stone. Prefer natural handle materials.

So please suggest anything you might know of along this line.
Thanks.
 
JM2, I think you have 2 basic options.

1) Change how you are sharpening the Buck Vantage by going to a more acute (thicker) angle and using a more course stone (medium, instead of fine).

2) Upgrade your Arkansas stone to a diamond stone so you can more easily sharpen course carbide steels.


IMO, edge retention and ease of sharpening are diametrically opposed. Diamond stones (or their equivalent) help change this.

In my crude understanding of steels, "hardness" needs to be thought of in 2 ways: abrasion and denting. The ability to withstand being pressed on and denting is measured as Rockwell hardness - the RC number. Aluminum beer cans are soft and a cast iron skillet are hard.

Abrasion is different. It depends on the carbides in the steel. Fine carbide steels are like cement mixed with sand. Course carbide steels are like concrete mixed with gravel. The carbides are like the gravel. They're very hard and they resist being scrubbed off, which is why they are harder to sharpen. You need something like diamond which will cut right through the bits of gravel (the carbides). But, they tend to cut longer too.

Bucks 420HC is among the best fine carbide steel that you can get. It's hardened to 58Rc, which is quite high. I doubt very much that you will find an easy to sharpen fine carbide steel that will last longer. But there is hope.

It might be that you've taken your Vantage to too thin of an edge. If you have, then your edge may be going "dull" because the edge is rolling. If this is the case, then the fix is to move to a wider edge angle. I find with 420HC and similar steels, I get much longer life by staying out in the 20 degrees per side range. That's considered wide by some people's standards but I prefer to have a tougher longer lasting edge.

The other trick for getting longer lasting edges with steels like Buck's 420HC is to switch to a medium grit stone for final edge finishing, instead of a fine stone. This leaves the edge with micro serrations which keep cutting, even as the edge wears down. That's the theory, anyway and I'm convinced.

If widening the edge and leaving it a bit more course don't change your Vantage, a) send it to me for proper disposal ;) and b) you might need to consider moving to a medium carbide steel and to upgraded stones like diamond.
 
pinnah said:
JM2, I think you have 2 basic options.

1) Change how you are sharpening the Buck Vantage by going to a more acute (thicker) angle and using a more course stone (medium, instead of fine).

2) Upgrade your Arkansas stone to a diamond stone so you can more easily sharpen course carbide steels.


IMO, edge retention and ease of sharpening are diametrically opposed. Diamond stones (or their equivalent) help change this.

In my crude understanding of steels, "hardness" needs to be thought of in 2 ways: abrasion and denting. The ability to withstand being pressed on and denting is measured as Rockwell hardness - the RC number. Aluminum beer cans are soft and a cast iron skillet are hard.

Abrasion is different. It depends on the carbides in the steel. Fine carbide steels are like cement mixed with sand. Course carbide steels are like concrete mixed with gravel. The carbides are like the gravel. They're very hard and they resist being scrubbed off, which is why they are harder to sharpen. You need something like diamond which will cut right through the bits of gravel (the carbides). But, they tend to cut longer too.

Bucks 420HC is among the best fine carbide steel that you can get. It's hardened to 58Rc, which is quite high. I doubt very much that you will find an easy to sharpen fine carbide steel that will last longer. But there is hope.

It might be that you've taken your Vantage to too thin of an edge. If you have, then your edge may be going "dull" because the edge is rolling. If this is the case, then the fix is to move to a wider edge angle. I find with 420HC and similar steels, I get much longer life by staying out in the 20 degrees per side range. That's considered wide by some people's standards but I prefer to have a tougher longer lasting edge.

The other trick for getting longer lasting edges with steels like Buck's 420HC is to switch to a medium grit stone for final edge finishing, instead of a fine stone. This leaves the edge with micro serrations which keep cutting, even as the edge wears down. That's the theory, anyway and I'm convinced.

If widening the edge and leaving it a bit more course don't change your Vantage, a) send it to me for proper disposal ;) and b) you might need to consider moving to a medium carbide steel and to upgraded stones like diamond.
Click to expand...

Great info from Pinnah. If you are dead set on carbon steel then your options start to get limited as most of the major manufacturers tend to favor some type of stainless in a drop point hunter.

You could check out Bark River or Winkler. Both are highly respected with a strong following and both use carbon steel (A2 in the Bark River and 5160 in the Winkler) in their fixed blade hunters. They definitely aren't cheap though...

Good luck with your search!
 
I've been pondering the TOPS Tex Creek Hunter lately, and it looks like it may meet your requirements. Nice 1095 blade, a tad over 4 inches. Another option is the S30V version of the Buck 192 that Calbela's sells under the Alaskan Guide series. I have one and it really is a nice knife. The Bos heat treated S30V holds a good edge.
 
Check out the Kabar/Becker BK16 and the Esee 4. If your budget is a little higher, some of the knifemakers that sell on this site turn out some very nice stuff at reasonable prices. If you're okay with 01 and A2, your options expand a bit more.
 
You didn't mention budget, but you might look into Smith & Sons "Brave" or "Cherokee" knives. They might meet your criteria.
 
pinnah said:
JM2, I think you have 2 basic options.

1) Change how you are sharpening the Buck Vantage by going to a more acute (thicker) angle and using a more course stone (medium, instead of fine).

2) Upgrade your Arkansas stone to a diamond stone so you can more easily sharpen course carbide steels.


IMO, edge retention and ease of sharpening are diametrically opposed. Diamond stones (or their equivalent) help change this.

In my crude understanding of steels, "hardness" needs to be thought of in 2 ways: abrasion and denting. The ability to withstand being pressed on and denting is measured as Rockwell hardness - the RC number. Aluminum beer cans are soft and a cast iron skillet are hard.

Abrasion is different. It depends on the carbides in the steel. Fine carbide steels are like cement mixed with sand. Course carbide steels are like concrete mixed with gravel. The carbides are like the gravel. They're very hard and they resist being scrubbed off, which is why they are harder to sharpen. You need something like diamond which will cut right through the bits of gravel (the carbides). But, they tend to cut longer too.

Bucks 420HC is among the best fine carbide steel that you can get. It's hardened to 58Rc, which is quite high. I doubt very much that you will find an easy to sharpen fine carbide steel that will last longer. But there is hope.

It might be that you've taken your Vantage to too thin of an edge. If you have, then your edge may be going "dull" because the edge is rolling. If this is the case, then the fix is to move to a wider edge angle. I find with 420HC and similar steels, I get much longer life by staying out in the 20 degrees per side range. That's considered wide by some people's standards but I prefer to have a tougher longer lasting edge.

The other trick for getting longer lasting edges with steels like Buck's 420HC is to switch to a medium grit stone for final edge finishing, instead of a fine stone. This leaves the edge with micro serrations which keep cutting, even as the edge wears down. That's the theory, anyway and I'm convinced.

If widening the edge and leaving it a bit more course don't change your Vantage, a) send it to me for proper disposal ;) and b) you might need to consider moving to a medium carbide steel and to upgraded stones like diamond.
Click to expand...

I'm not knowledgeable about the details, but this is about what I think. I can't imagine a Buck 192 not being up to the task if sharpened right. I can see that edge rolling if sharpened too thin.
 
Have you visited the For Sale by Maker forum section? There are tons of drop-point knives sold there with natural handles. Look for sellers Big Chris, TK Steingass, bacustomknives (examples only, there are many others) who specialize in that style of knife. :thumbup:

I'm a fan of the Light Hunter series from Queen knives. D2 steel and beautiful bone handles. Don't know if they have one drop-pointy enough to suit you though, maybe just clip points.

Canal Street Cutlery has a beautiful drop point fixed blade. Their D'Holder model is quite expensive, but look for their "Trailing Drop Point."
 
GEC makes some hunting knives in 1095. Been looking at their drop point myself. Think it's the drop point H20? Seems like a good size and a versatile handle. And a very reasonable price.

Anyone have any experience with it?

Jim
 
Interesting. I have used my Buck 192 for many years on countless deer. It has always taken and held a good usable edge. A little stropping and it was good to go again.
 
Maybe i'm looking in the wrong places........but you don't see much love out there for the 192.

I've had mine for many years.....with only light yard/hiking duties.......but its been great. Only complaint is that its hollow instead of flat ground........but that is purely a preference and hasn't caused me any issues with my mileage.

Jim

 
Esee 3 or 4. Warrantied FOREVER. My son has been using his Esee 4 for a couple years now. I have multiple Esee's as well from the Candiru to the Junglas. All in all we own 6 of them.
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pinnah said:
JM2, I think you have 2 basic options.

1) Change how you are sharpening the Buck Vantage by going to a more acute (thicker) angle and using a more course stone (medium, instead of fine).

2) Upgrade your Arkansas stone to a diamond stone so you can more easily sharpen course carbide steels.


IMO, edge retention and ease of sharpening are diametrically opposed. Diamond stones (or their equivalent) help change this.

In my crude understanding of steels, "hardness" needs to be thought of in 2 ways: abrasion and denting. The ability to withstand being pressed on and denting is measured as Rockwell hardness - the RC number. Aluminum beer cans are soft and a cast iron skillet are hard.

Abrasion is different. It depends on the carbides in the steel. Fine carbide steels are like cement mixed with sand. Course carbide steels are like concrete mixed with gravel. The carbides are like the gravel. They're very hard and they resist being scrubbed off, which is why they are harder to sharpen. You need something like diamond which will cut right through the bits of gravel (the carbides). But, they tend to cut longer too.

Bucks 420HC is among the best fine carbide steel that you can get. It's hardened to 58Rc, which is quite high. I doubt very much that you will find an easy to sharpen fine carbide steel that will last longer. But there is hope.

It might be that you've taken your Vantage to too thin of an edge. If you have, then your edge may be going "dull" because the edge is rolling. If this is the case, then the fix is to move to a wider edge angle. I find with 420HC and similar steels, I get much longer life by staying out in the 20 degrees per side range. That's considered wide by some people's standards but I prefer to have a tougher longer lasting edge.

The other trick for getting longer lasting edges with steels like Buck's 420HC is to switch to a medium grit stone for final edge finishing, instead of a fine stone. This leaves the edge with micro serrations which keep cutting, even as the edge wears down. That's the theory, anyway and I'm convinced.

If widening the edge and leaving it a bit more course don't change your Vantage, a) send it to me for proper disposal ;) and b) you might need to consider moving to a medium carbide steel and to upgraded stones like diamond.
Click to expand...
13c26, 14c28n, AEBL, 1095 @60, 52100 @60.

Personally, I like AEBL for stainless and 52100 for carbon, given your requirements. Of course, you'll likely have to go custom to do it, but it didn't have to cost an arm and a leg. Basic fixed blades are surprisingly affordable.
 
I will have to research all suggested.

I like 1095 steel, and cases chrome vanadium. The CV sharpens easier, but dulls a little quicker. I prefer this steel.

I really liked the buck 192 I had, but it wouldnt hold an edge. I dont know what angle I used, I just sharpened it, it wasnt really low. I like that it was hollow ground. I prefer hollow ground knives. The 192 got dull too quickly, like all modern buck knives with 420 steel.

That said, I dont want a super steel. I like sharpening my knives, and i like using a traditional whetstone. I just dont like having to sharpen my knife every day after having only used it for a few odd tasks.
 
JM2 said:
I will have to research all suggested.

I like 1095 steel, and cases chrome vanadium. The CV sharpens easier, but dulls a little quicker. I prefer this steel.

I really liked the buck 192 I had, but it wouldnt hold an edge. I dont know what angle I used, I just sharpened it, it wasnt really low. I like that it was hollow ground. I prefer hollow ground knives. The 192 got dull too quickly, like all modern buck knives with 420 steel.

That said, I dont want a super steel. I like sharpening my knives, and i like using a traditional whetstone. I just dont like having to sharpen my knife every day after having only used it for a few odd tasks.
Click to expand...

I have found that I can tell a huge difference between the same steel from different knife makers. Knife makers get raw steel and each applies their own heat treatment - with difference hardnesses as the result.

I'm at a loss to explain your experience. Case only takes their steels to around 56RC. Buck, and others, take 420HC up to 58RC. GEC takes their 1095 to 58Rc and Opinel does the same for their 12C27. Old Schrade USA took their 1095 and 440A t the same level.

All of these steels have roughly the same carbides and hence edge retention from abrassion. Knives with more carbides will be all together dfferent.

Case's Tru Sharp is 420HC at 56RC. My understanding is their CV (reportedly 1086 with vandium) is likewise at 56Rc, same as Opinel's 1086. Very easy to sharpen but at this Rc level, more prone to edge rolling and requiring larger edge angle.

All this to say that my experience is opposite of yours. I find that Buck's 420HC holds an edge LONGER than other commercial steels of this type. I'm with Brian Evans. If you want an even harder edge with a fine carbide steel, you'll need to go to an even higher RC level and generally that means custom or semi-custom.
 
Interesting. Thanks for the info.

I've based my experience with 420 on 3 bucks, a 119 from the late 80s, and the 192, modern, and a modern 110. All had similar characteristics. The 119 was tempered harder, and was harder to sharpen, and didnt dull as quickly as the others.

I've also had several of the case stainless steel knives, and they wouldnt hold an edge worth a darn. I had 2 stockmans, and a copperlock. I got frustrated and sold them.

I had a gerber gator, that would get really sharp, but not hold an edge well. Im not sure what steel it was.

Im not saying 1095, or Cases CV hold an edge any "longer" but for me it feels like the 420 knives get dull much quicker than they should.

It might help to note that I am a carpenter. I use my knives in wood working. Not specifically for that purpose, but I whittle, carve, sharpen pencils, and do general tasks throughout the day.
 
I've been giving it some more thought, and im thinking about trying the esee 3, or 4. I havent been able to decide. I like the 3 better i think as i could carry it all the time and not be a burden.
 
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