Duelling Knive's?

To Steve Harvey: My intention was to be downright damning on knife fighting. It's time we stopped talking out of both sides of our mouths. For example, do you remember David Carradine in 'Kung Fu'? For half of the show he talked about the altruistic elements of life. For the last half of the show he kicked the crap out of everybody. In the school the next day, did we talk about Eastern mysticism? Naw, we talked about Carrradine laying a sandal upside some cracker's head. In the forums we talk about how the new modern steels and great groundbreaking designs cut, and the thread gets maybe a dozen hits. Talk about CUTTING PEOPLE and the thread goes into multiple pages. I'm not going to be shy about this; I quit going to bars--sure, I hate cigarette smoke, but I hate idiots more. I loathe idiots with knives because it tars us all. I won't pretend that these 'martial artists' are on some renewal kick. They all want to stomp the bad guys--and look cool doing it. What's the best dueling knife? When is a fighting knife legal? Would this thread have gathered as much attention had it read 'what's the best margarine knife.'?--OKG
You make some strong points OKG and, unfortunately, for the most part you are right about the majority of MA students. However, like myself, there are many who followed that initial interest into MA then found themselves in a traditional dojo where mind/body connection/meditation/CONTROL were the things being taught and the rest was a really great form of exercise and a traditional connection to the past. I spent 5 years practicing more than 5 days a week and have continued a less active study (physically) which has lead into studies of Zen, Buddhism, Confuscionism, and Philosophy as well as lead me to studying traditional religion which was previously absent in my childhood and early life. Aside from sparring in the dojo and teaching self defense classes I have NEVER been in a fight despite being sucker punched numerous times, faced with plenty of verbal barrages and shoving matches, etc, etc, etc..... And it was the MARTIAL ART TRAINING which allowed me to walk away and turn the other cheek EVERY time! I was able to control some basic instincts and most importantly I NEVER felt my life was threatened because of what I knew inside and of my abilities and knew that if things escalated I could handle it no problem. After my first month in MA I knew there was no way to look good in a fight and that showboating was sickening and dangerous. Now, the thought of hurting another individual in a real fight or perhaps killing or seriously wounding someone protecting myself or my family leaves me with a horrid feeling of dread and despair. My whole life has been learning then practicing for the preservation and improving the quality of life and I feel my previous MA experience has only positively affected it. I totally agree with the irresponsible drinking with you but feel you are missing the mark by a long shot on at least 'some' MA practitioners out there. Not trying to change your mind but merely giving you a different perspective for whatever that is worth. You sound like a person who has and will help a great many people and I would hate for you to write someone off being blinded by a previous bias.... Peace.


"The difference between being a Coward
and a Hero is not whether you're scared,
it's what you do while you're scared."

I fence live steel for the same reason I write poetry and play classical piano.
Because it's something I enjoy.
I carry a knife because the Boy Scouts and a lifetime of experience taught me that it is good to always have certain tools close to hand, one of which is a knife. I also carry a lighter but I don't smoke.

OKG, It seems to me that you are dealing with a lot of preconceived notions of what other people are all about, and having read many of your posts, this attitude kind of surprises me.
You make an issue of whether this thread would have this many hits if it were about butter knives, but that's just railing against human nature.
We as a species are morbidly fascinated by the prospect of our own demise, and therefor are fascinated by the violence which ends human life.
Why is it that no one is interested in a living history group that portrays life in rural Kansas, circa 1934?
Because it's BORING!
The essence of human endeavor is CONFLICT.
Anyone who's ever taken Creative Writing 101 knows that the cornerstone of any story plot is conflict. Without conflict, there is no plot, and therefor no story.
The human mind is geared to deal with conflict and it is by rising to the challenge and winning over that conflict that mankind rises to higher levels, be they spiritual, physical, financial, emotional or purely mental.
Without conflict all is stasis and there can be no growth or change, and by extension, no life, because that which does not grow does not live.
What greater manifestation of conflict can there ever be than warfare, and what more benign expression and outlet for that conflict can there be than a bloodless sport, training for a war that will never come, or better yet, came centuries ago, and is nothing but a historical footnote so insignificant that no high school senior will ever read about it in a school textbook?
I just don't think you're being realistic or reasonable when you take exception to the concept of people spending their leisure time learning the ways of an archaic and obsolete fighting system.
Yes, that's what dueling IS.
It's obsolete, archaic and rather innocent in these days of Nuclear/Chemical/Biological warfare.
Do I practice my swordsmanship in the belief that I'll one day have to use it to defend myself and my family?
God no! I'm a modern man, and if I'm FORCED to defend myself or my family I'll use a modern and much more effective weapon. (Like a nice modern firearm!)

I cut it, and I cut it, and it's STILL too short!
To Emanym Ton: I'm happy you found peace, I was baptized in a similar search. However, we are faced with the delination of this thread and the message it sends. As a concerned insider of MA, you should be very critical of how the sport is taught. There's an old saying, "In war, the first casualty is the truth." As a teacher, my wife often tells me that troubled kids go to karate practice. However, it's usually five minutes of 'clean your room and obey elders' followed by five hours of training. There are simply better ways. The truth is that these Korean princilples are outdated. Any attacker that raises his hand to me in a 'Karate Kid' pose gets shot between the eyes. Iron replaced bronze, gunpowder replaced the samuri, and 100 years from now reactive armor will be used to deflect particle beam weapons. To some extent, I believe in the adage 'if you want peace, prepare for war.' But like the Soviet Union that bankrupt itself preparing for war every day, we spend far too much time buttressing MA and dueling knives into a pedigree when it's a mungrel. You do not find peace by throwing a punch. I lifted weights this morning, no one died, and if a kid saw me do it, it was a good example.--OKG
OKG: I agree with your sentiments, but who is saying anything in favor of cutting people? Correct me if I am wrong, but I got the impression from your posts that you think shooting people or using a pool cue on people would be justifiable under certain circumstances. There is a logical disconnect there.

What self defense is all about is sustaining life, your own and those in your extended tribe. A knife, in use for self defense, is like a knife in any other situation, a tool that you use to sustain and enhance your life. We are simply training in a martial discipline that employs a common tool in the act of self defense against a life threatening violent attack. In no way is unnecessarily harming another human being elevated above the pure atrocity that it is. But when you are in the clutches of a violent criminal who is stabbing you, you are faced with a terrible choice, fight back or die. If you choose to fight back, you use whatever tools you can. Few people feel the need to carry a gun or pool cue wherever they go. A good knife, on the other hand, has a thousand uses, and I carry one all the time. As Ken said, I think you may be projecting some personal issues on other people.

Besides, if you actually totaled up the posts on Bladeforums in two categories, defense related and non-defense related, you might be surprised. I think we have the longest arguments about blade materials and heat treatments.

[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 12-08-2000).]
To Steve Harvey: Let me clarify. Biblically, there will come a time where God destroys evil. During this destruction will be the deaths of created beings. These beings are creations by God's hand, and God is love. Sounds like a paradox. God himself calls it a strange act. Yes, I can foresee a time where I utilize a violent act to protect family and friends, but I'm not looking forward to it, or practicing cool retorts like 'make my day' and spending disposable income on every combat tool displayed in 'Tactical Knives.' But face it, I'm a 'guy,' I sit in locker rooms, I hear the tales of daring-do and reports of karate practice the night before. These are not men seeking an answer, but combatants seeking a target. Sooner or later you make a choice, and never ending discussions glorifying violence are silly and juvenile. Guys that dump all of their house money into that third degree black belt need a hobby and some serious couch time with a trained therapist. I hear Chuck Norris got himself an 'honorary sheriff's badge' and has now started making drug raids. I'll lay casino odds that Mr. Macho dies by a fifty buck gun. Now, if you 'dig' this, do it. But spare me the 'windmill fuel' about discovering yourself, and discipline and spiritual growth. I've heard it all, and told better, 25 years ago.--OKG
Old Knife Guy wrote:
"...never ending discussions glorifying violence are silly and juvenile."

I don't think so. I think they would be monstrous and intolerable, and if and when I see one, I don't fail to say so. But certainly you don't consider this thread to be such?

Some one just asked what's up with "dueling knives". A couple of people merely responded that dueling is currently only a fantasy, though certain knives could have some application for self defense, an application which some good people find interesting. Nothing monstrous about that. My wife might have something to say about silly and juvenile, but she is more jealous of the time I spend training than concerned about the impact on society.

So lighten up. Next time I spot silly and juvenile post glorifying violence, I'll let you know, and we can torch them together.

Wow OKG, the guys you describe are what I would call the 'bad seeds' of MA. While there are some dojos that guarantee a black belt after so much time or classes and emphasize combative scenarios and such there are 'traditional' dojos of which some use belts as ranking and some use no ranking system at all and the focus is profoundly different. In fact, some early MA branches had only one form and it was practiced to perfection. The mind/body connection is woven in completely with traditional dojos and is much more focused on than 'kicking someones ass' which is in fact looked down upon. The spiritual enlightenment for me was real but I can understand how you would be resistant to that belief from the people you've been exposed to. My first dojo was in an all free weight gym and I worked out in both and felt equally at home both places so I really don't see that either one is more 'responsibly representative' of an appropriate action for children to follow. I think they both represent exercise and 'discipline' in the pursuit of a better life and it is unfortunate that you don't see that. Tai Chi is, I guess, a more delineated example compared to the gentlemen you speak about. The traditional dojo I've woked out in is, perhaps, more easily compared to Tai Chi practitioners than those gents. Interestingly, I've been looking for a local dojo for my daughters and I was really disappointed as the ones I spoke with were as you've described. I thought it was more a regional thing as back in my home state of CO there were an abundance of traditional style dojos. Very interesting and very sad.
Let me ask you a sincere question. Get your checkbook. During the last year, did you spend more on Microtechs or the American Cancer Society? Did you put more hours in at the dojo or with Big Brothers and Big Sisters?
Tragic true story. Because of a selfish case of ego, I committed a serious moral offense 20 years ago. I assigned myself 'community service' service at the Vets' Hospital in Madison, Wisconsin. By accident, it was the same weekend "Saving Private Ryan" was in the theatres. The lines were around the block as tens of thousands of people went to the movie. Vets' Hospital was designed to hold 500 beds. The day I walked into the volunteer office, there were EIGHT PEOPLE. To vicariously see violence, there were thousands, to actually see a 'Private Ryan,' there were eight.
If you took all of the real bar fights from all of the guys in this thread (myself included) it would be less than a dozen--or we'd all be in prison. When you add up the thousands of dollars for MA lessons, knives, guns, Y2K dried food, Soldier of Fortune magazines and the like, it would be an incredible figure. My wife is a speech pathologist, and surgery for cleft palate children of limited income families gets a lot of pro bono work from surgeons. But they have to BEG for money for the supplies and the hospital fees. If the knuts here went without a knife per year, those kids would be in paradise.
Nothing I have read here has changed my mind. This is a silly topic.--OKG
Since you asked OKG,

Zero time in dojo in the last 5 years only home practice which is FREE and happens in the wee hours of the night as I spend much of my time worrying about how to bring the bills together which is not conducive to sleeping! And since we're on the topic, how much does a gym membership cost to lift weights? How much is your home equipment worth in the used market as that could certainly be sold and donated. Or are you one of those muscle and fitness guys that lift quarry rock and do isometrics by pushing against their house or negatives doing a squat combined with a curl of your foundation?

I work in Physical Therapy and have worked in and around hospitals my ENTIRE (adult) working life beginning at 17. I help people every day putting in more than 40 hours a week of which I do NOT get paid overtime as it is prohibited so I DONATE it spending extra time 'talking' with my patients when I know it will only translate into making me do my paperwork AFTER HOURS and FOR FREE!

EVERY YEAR since I began working at hospitals I have donated something on more than 3 or 4 occasions EACH YEAR starting with blood drives, progressing to YEAR LONG paycheck deductions and now have added that to my families regime in that my kids must gather, clean, and donate a portion of their 'old' toys before we get to Christmas. I buy newer coats for my children more often than needed and donate the others that are just fine to clothing drives. I donate clothing, furniture, kitchen supplies, etc every time I upgrade or move into a different house and find that I have too much stuff.

I've previously volunteered in EVERY possible medical situation you could possibly think of that I was qualified to work in from doing professional work to cleaning someone up who just puked his guts up or shat from his butt to his ankles and it always seemed like a PRIVELAGE to do it and I always hoped someone would be there for me when I was in need.

How much time do I spend now volunteering individually? NOT A DAMN MINUTE cause my kids are 6 and 9 and between working opposing shifts and FREE OVERTIME every week I see my kids an average of 2.5 hours a NIGHT.... A NIGHT! See my wife less and while I get weekends off with my kids she does not so that means that sometimes I can get involved in a volunteer activity that includes children but many times choose to support in other ways. Either way it will NEVER be enough and I know I will NEVER do a good enough job to help EVERYONE so I do what I can.

The things you mention that are wrong and corrupt about this world have ALWAYS been that way and, in fact, WAS WORSE! If you're one of those people who believe the 50's and 60's were a 'more gentle time' you're insane! There were no patient's rights back then and people were tortured without consent and without care or possibility of 'scientific' basis for what was being done to them! They were seen as objects and treated like friggin' cattle. To even be able to VOLUNTEER now is a HUGE leap forward as, in the past, it was not allowed and they called volunteers 'WITNESSES' and that simply couldn't be tolerated for all the obvious reasons!

LOOK AROUND on the forum here and see all the charity going on! You spout some serious dribble but fail to see things that a miraculously occuring all around here and that is simply wrong. I feel sorry for you that you feel things are so bad but agree there is room to get even better. BUT, to fail to recognize what GOOD is going on and how much GOOD is being accomplished now is simply a slap in the face to people who are busting their asses and trying like hell to make things better knowing that there will be no thanks in the end and likely they'll end up with no support in the end of their life!

I resent the HELL out of your statment and refuse to accept your gross generalization of the public. I KNOW things are getting better and plan to help that along as much as I can till the end of my life and spread it around to as many others as possible as well.

You need a serious dose of 'HAPPY' my friend!


[This message has been edited by Emanym Ton (edited 12-08-2000).]
It is silly... I practice MA's. I work in a community center. I volunteer time on community stuff outside of my job. I donate $$ to causes. I buy knifes and stuff too. I don't need to get into specifics, but where is it written that we have choose one or the other.

Individuals are driven by different things -- some good, some bad... It seems sometimes easier to judge than to see the shades in between.

AKTI #A000356

King Tut's post(the first post on this topic)
asked about "LIVE BLADE FIGHTING" & knives
designed for that purpose.
For the 5% of forumites,like Ken Cook
and the serious martial artists this subject
is worthwhile & beneficial;but for the rest
of us(95%)this subject is just plain dumb.
Just my 2 cents.

I posted this with the intention of learning about sparring and common knives used for that purpose, not about how to rob someone with a shank. I think alot of people here a gettin a little to uppity about being "PC".Cool down and read my post before you reply don't just read the heading.

Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn my god do you learn.
C.S. Lewis

[This message has been edited by King Tut (edited 12-09-2000).]
Double post.

But while I'm here I may as well add that the purpose of this thread is not to debate the unmoral practice of knife fighting or saving starving children in Cambodia.

Simply put OKG if you don't like knives or the uses for them get off the forums. I didn't ask what kind of knife will kill someone or how to do it. I asked if ANYONE knew ANYTHING about the use of a knife in a fighting environment,commonlly referred to as sparring or duelling training blade or live.(did you catch all that)Believe it or not some people do use knive's for self defense.(ever heard of Bram?)

While I'm at it how much do you spend on knive's? Or how bout a car? What people chose to spend their money on is really none of your business. Before you jump to conclusions know what your talking about.

[This message has been edited by King Tut (edited 12-09-2000).]
OKG I think you are trying to paint with to broad of a brush here.Every one buys items and spends money they could give to charity.Does this make a person bad?You go to a gym and hunt prairie dogs right?Couldn't you donate the gym membership money and your hunting time to help the less fortunate?I have noticed your anti-knife violence message and respect that.But to each his own.I help people and donate time when I can but I also buy knives and spend money for my own indulgences.I also see martial arts training in me and my son's future.Why?Why not?

"-shutterbugs don't pass around their cameras and geezers don't pass around their trophy-wives.I don't hand over a knife."--OKG
Sell all our knives and give the money to the poor, eh OKG?

Hey, even the disciples thought it prudent to have a sword or two among the twelve of them.

Even saints deserve a day off to go to the movies don't they?

OKG, the fact is, the old "dueling skills" are still directly usable for legitimate self defense today. For that matter, a modern interpretation of a 19th-century "Dueling Knife" such as made by Bagwell, Mag Dog, Ernie Mayer and others can still be used for legitimate self defense.

Self defense itself is NOT immoral. Fights over "honor" or the modern equivelent (ie: "he dissed me") is a bad joke, on that we couldn't agree more.

The question is, are you trying to cast a bad light on self defense, or drunken barroom stupidity? It's become impossible to tell from your writings. Several of the "intellectuals" behind Handgun Control Inc and their ilk actually want to ban self defense...in his speech at the time of his veto of a CCW reform bill in Colorado, Governor Owens said that "defense should be left to the police, that's what they're there for".

Are you aware he lied? California government code section 845 reads:

"845. Neither a public entity nor a public employee is liable for failure to establish a police department or otherwise to provide police protection service or, if police protection service is provided, for failure to provide sufficient police protection service."

EVERY single state has a similar provision, including Colorado.

Ooops. You know what that means? The cops aren't legally liable to preserve your life while you're in public, in your home or anywhere else. And believe me, lots of people have tried to sue cops for "failure to protect", and an unbroken string of 22 high court decisions say they can't.

Now, is a knife (big or small) the *best* means of self defense? Hell no. Not even close. But in a state like California where gun permits are for the rich or connected only, and batons of all types are flat-out banned, cutlery is about all we've got left. Sucks, but what else is new?

So some of us study the "knife dueling techniques" of either the old Mississippi Valley (Bagwell, Keating and Comtech), Japan (the Bujinkan/Genbukan/Jinenkan and a few other "Koryu"), the Filipino and Indonesian arts (probably the most common true knife combative systems in the US) and Bando from Southeast Asia.

Is that immoral? If your intent is legitimate, hell no.

Thank you, Jim. I couldn't agree more. I do not practice them, myself, for religious reasons, but I would not ever try to ban anyone else from the practice and use of whatever is needed in self-defense.

Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller
Calmly, let me point out a parallel experience. By the end of the 1960's, most companies had at least one car defined as a 'muscle car.' Inexperienced kids kept dying, insurance rates went up, and the cars disappeared. Those effected all yelled "no fair."
We all love knives, and I don't think anyone here who is articulate enough to post would ever cause a problem with a knife. In fact, there have been several posts here deriding irresponsible behavior in public with a knife--like on the Howard Stern show.
When we publish threads like 'duelling knives' in a public forum, we might as well spin the tires of a muscle car in front of the Allstate Insurance building. We all know knives cut, and even a dull one can maim.
I've seen the government ruin motorcycling, skin diving, skate boarding and firearms collecting EVEN by just investigating the use in some committee. And trust me, we do not enhance this sport by silly threads like 'my dojo kills faster than your dojo.'
I'm for freedom. You do as you like. Try not to bleed all over some over zealous news reporter trying to cash in on a spectacular headline.--OKG
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Old Knife Guy:
...When we publish threads like 'duelling knives' in a public forum, we might as well spin the tires of a muscle car in front of the Allstate Insurance building. We all know knives cut, and even a dull one can maim. I've seen the government ruin motorcycling, skin diving, skate boarding and firearms collecting EVEN by just investigating the use in some committee. And trust me, we do not enhance this sport by silly threads like 'my dojo kills faster than your dojo.'
I'm for freedom. You do as you like. Try not to bleed all over some over zealous news reporter trying to cash in on a spectacular headline.--OKG

You have a point OKG. However, all knives are tools. Some of those tools can be used as effective weapons. And self-defense based use of weapons is perfectly acceptable in this country. And, is a perfectly acceptable topic for discussion in these forums.

Many of us really dislike the teenage mutant Rambotronic Ninjamatic Deathmonger type of threads like 'what is the best knife to kill someone?', or your example, "my dojo kills faster than your dojo". These idiots generally end up having their posts locked down because of the animosity they inspire from Responsible knife users.

I do not think the political battle to save our knives (and our guns) can be won be denying the reality that these tools Can be used as weapons. They are just THINGS, until a mind turns them into a weapon.

I am not personally interested in the 'weapons' side of knife appreciation and ownership. But I am convinced that it is a completely legitimate topic. Duelling knives have a place in Historical knife discussion, and as modern collectables, and as weapons for those who train seriously in the martial arts.

You can not attack Every thread that refers to knives as weapons (actually, you could, but You will end up being the controversial figure some of the time). In particular, the originator of this thread, King Tut, appears to have a perfectly legitimate and respectful reason for asking his question. It is not obvious to me that he has some of the problems that you are so concerned about (and rightly so, I will add). Let's hold judgement until it is obvious that we are dealing with an irrational and immature person who is bent on a self-destructive path. This was not one of those cases.


[This message has been edited by Paracelsus (edited 12-12-2000).]