Dull Blade that won't take an edge

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Go with your coarsest stone (or pickup the ACE SiC as recommended by David), keep a steady angle on one side until you form a burr. Flip & do the same with the other side. I'm sure you'll get there.

Or

If you are that desperate, send it to one of our resident sharpener: Jason B, Josh @ Razor Edge, Big Chris (not sure if he accepts sharpening, he does regrind).
Having said that, a regrind might be what you really need.

 

[cbwx34]

Go with your coarsest stone (or pickup the ACE SiC as recommended by David), keep a steady angle on one side until you form a burr. Flip & do the same with the other side. I'm sure you'll get there.....

I think just this part. I have a thick fixed blade military knife that will slice phone book paper... I don't see any reason why the knife the OP has needs a regrind just to cut paper. I think it just needs a good sharpening.

As always, a picture of the blade is helpful...

 

[ericnpeterson]

Lots of great advice here, for sure.
Here's the thing though, I used to be able to get this knife sharp with just a few strokes.
I'm not sure it's my technique, because I'd have this problem with all of my knives.
Last night, 6 strokes each side on my Mercator, Razor sharp... I spent another hour on
the Case Trapper... can't even cut paper. I even tried the sharpie technique.. did well, but still dull.
I also have a Case slim-line Trapper, and also a Canal Street Halfmoon Trapper, both I can get like razors by using the stone I have.
I need to try a little of all the advice given here until something works. Advice taken, I won't bother with Ace.
Much appreciation for all the advice here, it's of great value.

 

[postoak]

Posts like this come up here all the time (in fact I made one). Either knife can't be sharpened or else it is actually made duller by attempting to sharpen. I'm not sure these things are always figured out, and lots of times there's no follow up as to what eventually happened.

 

[neal70]

if you just can't get it freehand, borrow someones lansky/smith's/dmt sharpening rod set ups, send it to one of the above folks(how cool would a BC regrind be?), or send it to case. make sure you have a 325,220,275 stone for freehanding too-i learned the hard way how much value the really coarse stones have re-profiling some M390. ah,what fun. Neal

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

(...)
As always, a picture of the blade is helpful...

Ditto that. Could make it easier to see what's going on, if the primary is getting too thick near the edge, if the edge is rounded excessively, etc. Something's very strange here, and it ought to be much simpler to figure out.


David

 

[bucketstove]

Lots of great advice here, for sure.
Here's the thing though, I used to be able to get this knife sharp with just a few strokes.
I'm not sure it's my technique, because I'd have this problem with all of my knives.
Last night, 6 strokes each side on my Mercator, Razor sharp... I spent another hour on
the Case Trapper... can't even cut paper. I even tried the sharpie technique.. did well, but still dull.
I also have a Case slim-line Trapper, and also a Canal Street Halfmoon Trapper, both I can get like razors by using the stone I have.
I need to try a little of all the advice given here until something works. Advice taken, I won't bother with Ace.
Much appreciation for all the advice here, it's of great value.

When sharpening takes just a few strokes,
you're microbeveling,
you're touching up a blade,
its not a full sharpening,
its only effective for a small amount of sharpenings,
its the final step in regular sharpening (cutting off the burr and microbeveling)

If there is a lot of wobblyness/variation in your angle holding,
then even if you take an hour at this high angle its possible not to get the blade sharp,
because you keep erasing your work , dulling your blade , or its just too thick at this point


this is what you need to do, split the angle in half.
you say sharpening takes a few strokes, so use half that angle (15 instead of 30)

and then do scrubbing pases at this half angle (15) for a full minute,
about 2-4 scrubs a second ... yes thats some 120-240 passes

after a minute check for burr. If there is no burr, do another minute.

when you raise a burr, switch sides, and once again scrub for a full minute , then check for burr.

After you've raised a burr on both sides,
double the angle (30) and cut off burr with a few alternating passes,
just like you're used to doing


if you do it in two steps, low angle with hundreds of strokes
then double angle with no more than 20 strokes
even if your angle holding is terrible and you're wobbling all over the place,
you'll still get shaving sharp if you raise the burr and cut it off

for the first part, the low angle hundreds of strokes,
you want to use your coarse abrasive (150-320 grit)
this is where the sharpie tricking for finding the angle helps,
because if you go too low, then instead of 5minutes it might take half an hour

 

[ericnpeterson]

Yeah, I have been low angle, high angle, everything in between.
My hand is steady... like I say, I have no problems with my other knives.
Tonight, spent 30 minutes on same knife... worse than yesterday. Instead, I pull out my Mercator, work it on the stone, razor sharp, cuts paper.
Yes it SEEMS like this could be figured out... but nothing seems to work.
Remember, I used to be able to sharpen this knife.
How can it be my technique if ALL of my other knives I don't have any trouble with? (I ask myself)
Somebody mentioned course stone.... got one of those too, same thing, maybe worse.
Now, I've also got a Smith sharpening kit, with the knife clamp to HOLD the angle even... this does nothing.
I'm at the point where I'm just gonna chuck the knife, it's worthless, and just buy another... I think I only paid 30.00 for it.
Like I say, I've got plenty of other knives that sharpen perfectly... why bother with this one... its had its day.
Only other solution is a re-grind.
I wish I could take a picture for you all, but don't have the means of uploading a photo.

 

[bucketstove]

Yeah, I have been low angle, high angle, everything in between.
My hand is steady... like I say, I have no problems with my other knives.
Tonight, spent 30 minutes on same knife... worse than yesterday. Instead, I pull out my Mercator, work it on the stone, razor sharp, cuts paper.
Yes it SEEMS like this could be figured out... but nothing seems to work.
Remember, I used to be able to sharpen this knife.
How can it be my technique if ALL of my other knives I don't have any trouble with? (I ask myself)
Somebody mentioned course stone.... got one of those too, same thing, maybe worse.
Now, I've also got a Smith sharpening kit, with the knife clamp to HOLD the angle even... this does nothing.
I'm at the point where I'm just gonna chuck the knife, it's worthless, and just buy another... I think I only paid 30.00 for it.
Like I say, I've got plenty of other knives that sharpen perfectly... why bother with this one... its had its day.
Only other solution is a re-grind.
I wish I could take a picture for you all, but don't have the means of uploading a photo.

Hi ericnpeterson
did you do what I outlined specifically?
Can you explain in a very detailed way what you did, how you tried to sharpen?
What were the angles you used?
how many strokes per side?
how much force did you use?
did you raise a burr?
what stone at what grit?

If you have a digital photo file, its simple enough to upload with http://imgur.com/ , no signup required

if you're having trouble getting a knife sharp enough to cut paper, then its probably angle issues

I've sharpened a random piece of mild steel shaving sharp, think tin can or altoids tin,
getting it to slice paper was the easy part, I only had to raise a burr

By comparison it is much easier to sharpen a dollar store knifes

So, I wouldn't throw this knife away, give it to a buddy to sharpen, trade it, pawn/sell/donate

 

[Wowbagger]

every fifty or one hundred strokes

The magazine spacer approach is great and the illustrations are even greater so don't get me wrong
BUT
If I had to sharpen knives in the fifty and hundreds of strokes I would take up another hobby or go back to my old one of long distance running.

Nah . . . use a killer coarse stone like 120 or a diamond extra coarse (which is actually less coarse) at 200 and
lets geeeeterdone

in like ten or twenty strokes then a few strokes on progressively finer stones to "hone" in on that shave sharp edge.

There is no wonder the poor guy is falling asleep at the wheel if he is in the zillions of strokes mode.



The DMT diamond plate with the black dot is the coarsest or there abouts






OK so I like taking bad photos of my diamond plate

Or better yet get an Edge Pro with a coarse stone and . . .

reeeeeeeeelaaaaaaaaaax



What the heck here's one more link

 

[ericnpeterson]

Hi ericnpeterson
did you do what I outlined specifically?
Can you explain in a very detailed way what you did, how you tried to sharpen?
What were the angles you used?
how many strokes per side?
how much force did you use?
did you raise a burr?
what stone at what grit?

If you have a digital photo file, its simple enough to upload with http://imgur.com/ , no signup required

if you're having trouble getting a knife sharp enough to cut paper, then its probably angle issues

I've sharpened a random piece of mild steel shaving sharp, think tin can or altoids tin,
getting it to slice paper was the easy part, I only had to raise a burr

By comparison it is much easier to sharpen a dollar store knifes

So, I wouldn't throw this knife away, give it to a buddy to sharpen, trade it, pawn/sell/donate

Re: Details
Angle: 25 and less
Strokes: per side (an hours worth)
Force: Easy/ firm
Burr: Sort of
Stone: Smith Fine/Coarse

Question: If my angle can get a great edge on my Canal Street Trapper, then why not this? The blades are almost identical.
Same with my case slim-line Trapper.

 

[bucketstove]

Question: If my angle can get a great edge on my Canal Street Trapper, then why not this? The blades are almost identical. Same with my case slim-line Trapper.

Hi
Its because one edge is thicker than the other, its time to do a full sharpening
You could try using a 30 or 35 degree angle, one minute worth of strokes tops,
but you probably won't like the results

Re: Details
Angle: 25 and less
Strokes: per side (an hours worth)
Force: Easy/ firm
Burr: Sort of
Stone: Smith Fine/Coarse

Thats is vague , can you be more specific?

Which smith stone do you have, smith has a lot of "fine/coarse" products, so which one, find it here http://www.smithsproducts.com/

Its important to know because you don't to use a lot of force on diamonds or rods

What does "25 and less" mean?
You did 25 degrees for five minutes, then 20 for five, then 25 for five?
25 for half minute then 20 for half a minute , then ... ?
One stroke at 25 one at 20 two at 25 three at 20 ...?

 

[bucketstove]

don't get me wrong BUT If I had to sharpen knives in the fifty and hundreds of strokes I would take up another hobby or go back to my old one of long distance running.
Nah . . . use a killer coarse stone like 120 or a diamond extra coarse (which is actually less coarse) at 200 and lets geeeeterdone
in like ten or twenty strokes then a few strokes on progressively finer stones to "hone" in on that shave sharp edge.
There is no wonder the poor guy is falling asleep at the wheel if he is in the zillions of strokes mode.
...

Hi Wowbagger ,
Man, that's just MEAN. That's MEAN, man.

It takes as longs as it takes.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Yeah, I have been low angle, high angle, everything in between.
My hand is steady... like I say, I have no problems with my other knives.
Tonight, spent 30 minutes on same knife... worse than yesterday. Instead, I pull out my Mercator, work it on the stone, razor sharp, cuts paper.
Yes it SEEMS like this could be figured out... but nothing seems to work.
Remember, I used to be able to sharpen this knife.
How can it be my technique if ALL of my other knives I don't have any trouble with? (I ask myself)
Somebody mentioned course stone.... got one of those too, same thing, maybe worse.
Now, I've also got a Smith sharpening kit, with the knife clamp to HOLD the angle even... this does nothing.
I'm at the point where I'm just gonna chuck the knife, it's worthless, and just buy another... I think I only paid 30.00 for it.
Like I say, I've got plenty of other knives that sharpen perfectly... why bother with this one... its had its day.
Only other solution is a re-grind.
I wish I could take a picture for you all, but don't have the means of uploading a photo.

I can't help but think the edge is too excessively rounded off to apex quickly enough, and that's compounding the problems. The 'low angle, high angle, everything in between' approach will do just that (round the apex), if any one part of that approach isn't taken far enough to a clean apex. When the process goes astray initially, and one starts to try anything & everything to compensate for the loss of sharpness (without taking only a single, consistent approach far enough to fully apex again), it just gets worse as frustration and fatigue set in. I think everybody's been there (I have), and this isn't a knock against ability or technique; it just happens sometimes. There might also be some issues with the diamond hone; the combination of Case's softish stainless and some coarser diamond hones has given me issues at times, making it difficult to refine the edge to a clean apex. If there is an issue there, that'll obviously add another layer of frustration to the process.


David

 

[cbwx34]

If you spent very much time at a higher angle... all your lower angle work is now a waste of time, unless you use a coarse stone and reset the bevel. You can't keep switching back and forth hoping something will work.

 

[postoak]

Wow, don't toss the knife. If you are okay with doing that then PLEASE mail the knife off to one of these experts who can look at it and tell us what the issue is. That way we all will learn something.

 

[ericnpeterson]

Hi
Its because one edge is thicker than the other, its time to do a full sharpening
You could try using a 30 or 35 degree angle, one minute worth of strokes tops,
but you probably won't like the results


Thats is vague , can you be more specific?

Which smith stone do you have, smith has a lot of "fine/coarse" products, so which one, find it here http://www.smithsproducts.com/

Its important to know because you don't to use a lot of force on diamonds or rods

What does "25 and less" mean?
You did 25 degrees for five minutes, then 20 for five, then 25 for five?
25 for half minute then 20 for half a minute , then ... ?
One stroke at 25 one at 20 two at 25 three at 20 ...?

25 degrees. 20 strokes each side at 25 degrees. I'll keep doing 20 strokes each side for up to an hour.
Smith Sharpening system, and also a Smith for field (coarse/fine)
These are diamonds, I don't have rods.

 

[ericnpeterson]

I can't help but think the edge is too excessively rounded off to apex quickly enough, and that's compounding the problems. The 'low angle, high angle, everything in between' approach will do just that (round the apex), if any one part of that approach isn't taken far enough to a clean apex. When the process goes astray initially, and one starts to try anything & everything to compensate for the loss of sharpness (without taking only a single, consistent approach far enough to fully apex again), it just gets worse as frustration and fatigue set in. I think everybody's been there (I have), and this isn't a knock against ability or technique; it just happens sometimes. There might also be some issues with the diamond hone; the combination of Case's softish stainless and some coarser diamond hones has given me issues at times, making it difficult to refine the edge to a clean apex. If there is an issue there, that'll obviously add another layer of frustration to the process.


David

I really think you're onto something here... This might be what's going on.

 

[ericnpeterson]

Wow, don't toss the knife. If you are okay with doing that then PLEASE mail the knife off to one of these experts who can look at it and tell us what the issue is. That way we all will learn something.

LOL No, I won't toss it.. I was saying that just out of frustration.

 

[ericnpeterson]

If you spent very much time at a higher angle... all your lower angle work is now a waste of time, unless you use a coarse stone and reset the bevel. You can't keep switching back and forth hoping something will work.

No, I'm not jumping back and forth. I'm finding an angle and a stone surface and stick to it for an hour at a time.
The other day, one hour straight on coarse diamond, then an hour on fine side.... at 25 degrees, then ripped paper with my knife.
I'm not doing 25 degrees for 8 strokes then 10 strokes at 35 etc... I pick and stick to one thing.