Dumb steel question

PJ,

If you update your profile to let us know were you live someone might have some good steel you could get from them locally. I know if you were in the Salem area you would already have a piece to work with.

me2 there was a blade made from mild steel at the Moran school that made one cut thru the rope. It failed rapidly on the 2x4 chop. It did not pass the ABS test just one part. The story is used 2 fold, to show that geometry can make a cut and to check your work after hardening.

Chuck
 
Hi Chuck,

Good idea...done! I'm in the Phoenix area if anyone has any spare steel or suggestions for me.

Thanks!

A C Richards said:
PJ,

If you update your profile to let us know were you live someone might have some good steel you could get from them locally. I know if you were in the Salem area you would already have a piece to work with.

me2 there was a blade made from mild steel at the Moran school that made one cut thru the rope. It failed rapidly on the 2x4 chop. It did not pass the ABS test just one part. The story is used 2 fold, to show that geometry can make a cut and to check your work after hardening.

Chuck
Click to expand...
 
What me2 said is true, as well as the other guys... It's a lot of both, boiled down it's like this... Make a few out of junk first. Get your process down, now go get some good steel to play with. By the way if you have a "Fastenal" store nearby, they carry 01,A2,W1 Tool Steels I recommend 01, 1095,1084,1070, W1, W2, to start with, I personally had a bad experiance with Admiral steel, but go ahead if you'd like. They're only saving grace is they have VERY REASONABLE prices on there steel. anyway thats my .02 worth

http://www.fastenal.com/web/products.ex?N=999600930&Nty=0
 
here is a dumb steel question-

"how many pieces of steel does it take to screw in a lightbulb?" :D

show us pics when you are done!
 
Check out mcmastercarr.com, type in 5160 steel. That's a good start. For around $50 shipped, you can get 6 feet of it. Makes a nice bowie, or if you're so inclined, you can forge a Rambo "4" style knife.

Stay away from that crap Lowe's sells. You can't make a good knife with any steel they sell.
 
Thanks again, everyone! Fastenal has several stores in the Phoenix area so I think I'll drop by there tomorrow and see what they have (although I didn't really find anything on their website?). Depending on how much their stuff costs, I'll either keep the cheap crap to practice with or return it, and/or order some from one of the online suppliers.

Chuck, Lakeside is not close by but thanks for the idea anyway!
 
Keith_H said:
here is a dumb steel question-

"how many pieces of steel does it take to screw in a lightbulb?" :D

show us pics when you are done!
Click to expand...

Now that's a dumb steel question!!!

If I'm not too embarrassed I'll post a pic of the carnage when I'm finished.
 
I completely understand your impatience, as once I get an idea in my craw, I'll run myself to the ground chasing it out. And I hate to wait. :D

At the same time, some of the replies you've gotten from excellent makers are those that are echoed, I'm sure, by many who have not replied to this post. Knife making is something that takes a lot of study and diligence to get it right. No one .... no one is going to be successful on their first attempt if they just go out and wing it. There have been some posts on here showing off first attempt knives that have absolutely blown a lot of us away, but all of those amazing first attempts were done by guys who either had a great deal of prior experience in the field of metal working/shaping or had taken hours and hours of their time to read up and patiently craft a blade. It's not that we don't all wish you great success and hope that you'll be bitten by the knife making bug like all of us have, it's just that if you want to do it right, it takes time and study.

My first knife was made out of an old saw blade (probably L6, but not really sure) and didn't require any bevel grinding because it was so thin. I just had to shape it, put a handle on it, and sharpen it. I kept the heat down during shaping so as not to ruin the heat treatment already performed to the saw blade. I've still got it, but it's nothing I'm too proud of :D.

I'm always one that if I'm going to do something, I want it done the best I can at that time. That's why if it was me, I'd go ahead and get some real steel and do the best I can to shape it. Who knows, you may be an absolute natural and make something really great! If so, a piece of mild steel won't be worth anything. I hope you find a piece locally to work. However, on the other side, if you just want to get your teeth gritty and get the feel of grinding steel, have a blast with that mild steel. In the other times you're not working or that you're home at night, spend time reading up on the craft. All my knives have been made in the evening or on weekends as it's just a hobby, and my full time job, part time job, and fiance keep me busy the rest of the time.

Have a great time, and good luck!

--nathan
 
i would suggest not wasting time practicing on the mild steel. even the real stuff is cheap enough that it can be practiced on. then if it does turn out even half way decent you can still use it. one thing im interested in is what kind of tools you have access to for making this blade.
and my advice for beginners is use 5160 (and i have no fears about using old leaf springs). the way i would do it with no special tools would be to anneal it in a camp fire or bbq (not propane) file it to shape then harden in the same fire, quenching in used motor oil, and temper in a kitchen oven. honestly, i feel 5160 is that easy to deal with. good luck and have fun! i know how it is to want to do something asap, but patience will give you better results.
-Lou
 
I would like to give you some unsolicited advise.You can take it or leave it and it won't affect me at all. What you do with it will affect you and how you go about knifemaking.

USE A GOOD AND KNOWN STEEL. O-1, 1084, 5160 are good starter steels.

USE THE SAME STEELfor the first five to ten knives (some makers never change).

TAKE YOUR TIME. If you are one to want things in a hurry and don't like waiting, take up some other hobby. Knifemaking is a slow work process, with waits and steps along the way.

PLAN EVERYTHING BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING. If you are one who just jumps in and learns by mistake, take up another hobby.

KNIFEMAKING IS A LONG TERM PROCESS, it take a good while to develop the skills to make a good knife. Don't be misled by the posts of "First Knife" pictures. Many of those were a year of more in the making (with several failures beforehand). The sale of equipment and supplies from those who enter all gung-ho and burn out immediately is a constant source.

MAKING KNIVES IS NOT CHEAP, while it can be done with a file and sandpaper, eventually you will need equipment, space to use it, and time to make knives. All of these require some expenditure. If you can't see yourself devoting the required time, money, and effort, take up another hobby.

YOU WON'T GET RICH MAKING KNIVES. Just ask any maker. The rare few (very rare) make a good living at it. Most makers are in it for the fun.

I wish you all the best in your new hobby choice. But ,a few days and a piece of mild steel won't be enough to get started.
Stacy
 
PS and please be careful. Power tools and sharp metal are extremely dangerous and unforgiving. As much as we care about them they don't have a single care or thought about us. It only takes a split second of carelessness or thoughtlessness to have have an serious injury. I say that as a guy from the metal trades who was lucky to make it through my impatient youth without any major long lasting dings.
 
bladsmth said:
I would like to give you some unsolicited advise.You can take it or leave it and it won't affect me at all. What you do with it will affect you and how you go about knifemaking.

USE A GOOD AND KNOWN STEEL. O-1, 1084, 5160 are good starter steels.

USE THE SAME STEELfor the first five to ten knives (some makers never change).

TAKE YOUR TIME. If you are one to want things in a hurry and don't like waiting, take up some other hobby. Knifemaking is a slow work process, with waits and steps along the way.

PLAN EVERYTHING BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING. If you are one who just jumps in and learns by mistake, take up another hobby.

KNIFEMAKING IS A LONG TERM PROCESS, it take a good while to develop the skills to make a good knife. Don't be misled by the posts of "First Knife" pictures. Many of those were a year of more in the making (with several failures beforehand). The sale of equipment and supplies from those who enter all gung-ho and burn out immediately is a constant source.

MAKING KNIVES IS NOT CHEAP, while it can be done with a file and sandpaper, eventually you will need equipment, space to use it, and time to make knives. All of these require some expenditure. If you can't see yourself devoting the required time, money, and effort, take up another hobby.

YOU WON'T GET RICH MAKING KNIVES. Just ask any maker. The rare few (very rare) make a good living at it. Most makers are in it for the fun.

I wish you all the best in your new hobby choice. But ,a few days and a piece of mild steel won't be enough to get started.
Stacy
Click to expand...

Everything Stacy said is good advice and true! Don't let is scare you, let it guide your expectations.
My first knife was over 4 years in the making.
I made my first few knives out of nicholson files, then I got smart and bought some O-1 so I wouldn't have to undo all of the work Nicholson had put into making their steel into files before I could start turning it into knives, also then I could actually make knives any size and shape I could buy steel large enough to work from.
After about 7 years of stock removal I got the silly idea of trying to hammer out a blade, I used my oxy acetelyne torch for heat and forged for the first time, at that point the stock removal blades I had just started never got finished, they are still kicking around, I built a forge got an anvil and started beating on metal. It's 27 years since I softened up that first nicholson file with a bernz-o-matic and started filing it in my parent's basement after they were asleep, and I am still not rich. I have a good selection of tools, all of which have at least paid back what they cost me, I am still learning new and fun ways to make metal dance. It is an obsession, welcome to the addiction, welcome to BladeForums.
Read all of the info you can get your hands on (the great info sticky should keep you busy for a while and it is FABULOUS advice, I wish something like BF had been available 27 years ago!)

Get yourself some good steel, keep the mild for making guards fixtures, jigs or whatever from. Don't be afraid to post pictures of your work, there are a lot of good folks here who will give you good advice

-Page
 
When I first got into knifemaking, I had a hand drill, hacksaw, large bastard file and dollar store sandpaper. I went down to the local steel place and asked for a length of 1095. I got a quick blank look, then the kid quickly cut off a length of steel from an unknown bar in the pile.

Several months later, after doing everything by hand for 3 to 4 hours a day, I had a formitable bowie knife. I heat treated it with two propane torches in a cinder block square. I could cut paper like a razor and split (note: split with the grain) campwood. It couldn't hold an edge, epecially after some chopping or whitling but I thought it was because of the poor heat treat.

After a while, I bought some power equipment and started forging. That old knife became an eye sore, seeing mistakes and areas for improvement. I went back to the steel place and asked for another piece of 1095. The owner told me he never had 1095, only the cold rolled 1018: which is the same stuff sold at Lowes and Home Depot.

Stacy does give good advice. However your first few knives will end up in the trash. If you practice with the mild steel for your first and maybe second knives and knowing you made a useless knife but the bug is still there, then invest in the good steel and good equipment and enjoy the hobby.

I know of many grown, grizzled men who lost a knife in heat treat ("ping, crack") whose eyes misted over in frustration, usually just before throwing the hunk of steel across the room.

Oh, how about making a damascus billet without the benefit of a press or powerhammer; only to find after hours of folding, fluxing, cleaning and heating, one of the layers developed many inclusions of flux; ruining the entire day.

Trust me, there will be a ton of junk knives in the process. If you can handle that heartbreak and frustration, then you can handle the hobby.


P.S. When a neighborhood kid came in and wanted to start making knives with me, I handed him a piece of mild steel for him to practice with. I told him this was to practice and making real knives came later. He ground one side and left for the evening, never to return. When I saw him a week later and asked why he never came back, he told me that grinding wasn't what he expected and it was boring. He liked welding better.
 
I made a knife with mild steel but ended up with something resembling a blade. It is not going to work as a true knife. You can use it to practice but I would rathe practice on steel that in the end can be useful.
 
Thanks again for all of the excellent advice! Fastenal was a bust (they only stocked mild steel and all I saw in the catalog was 01 and A2...not sure if those are good starter steels???)

My plan if is to order the 5160 posted earlier and as time or need allows experiment with the mild steel. Knowing it won't ever make a real knife I won't invest lots of time into it.

Since forging was brought up, that is something else I'm interested in trying at some point. Can anyone recommend a source for the firebrick used in the 'one brick forge'? Also, is there something that is commonly available or in most homes that could do as a makeshift anvil? Again, I realize having a huge expensive anvil is the ideal way to go, but not if I try it once and discover I don't enjoy it.

Thanks again for the help! I normally am the type of person to not even want to start anything without all of the bases covered, but these are some unusual circumstances for me.
 
PS For simple backyard heat treating, can I pull this off with a propane gas grill or outdoor cooker burner, or will that not get hot enough?
 
O-1 is great starter steel, I have done my own heat treat on it for 24 years, or you can send it out. I would not think a propane gas grill would get hot enough, but there are a number of simple homebuilt devices that will. I use 130 degreef olive oil for the quench and it works. Not as good as dedicated quench oils like Parks I'm sure, but it doesn't flare up like the petroleum based frankenquenches some folks use (transmission oil, motoroil, parrafin mixed with lard etc)
Read the great info stickys theres great info in there, and surprisingly relevant to what you are trying to do

-Page
 
You can get soft refractory brick (good up to 2300-2500 degrees) from any refractory supplier. Look furnace suppliers, industrial refractory/combustable suppliers, etc. It's listed under refractories in our phone book. Give 'em a call and ask for soft refractory fire brick. I bought a case of bricks for around 40 bucks. Came in handy when I built my heat treat oven.

You won't get anywhere near the heat retention needed for heat treating in a propane grill. I did my early heat treats in a one brick propane forge. The brick allows heat retention and re-radiates the heat back into the chamber for maximum heating. You want the flame to swirl around the outside walls of the hole in the brick, so round off your top and bottom to make the chamber into an elongated oval shape and blow your torch in at a slightly upward angle. Also, position the torch about 2-3 inches from the side opening of the brick so as to allow O2 in. This will get almost hot enough for very basic forging, but likely not hot enough to successfully forge weld damascus. I heat the blade portion of my knives in the forge, trying to keep the heat even by moving the blade in and out constantly and judging temperature by the look/color of the steel and when a magnet stopped sticking to the steel. This is called the curie point, but it is not the critical temperature needed to fully convert to austenite. That's a bit higher than the curie point. I would wait for the magnet not to stick, then continue the soak to bring the heat up until the steel came alive with color, try to maintain that temperature for a few minutes, and then quenched in canola oil. I've since gone on to build an electric oven with digital control, and it makes the world of difference and consistency.

O-1 works very well for a starter steel and I still use it almost exclusively. Keep in mine I'm no big producer. Maybe 1-2 knives per month. O-1 hardens deeply, is fairly forgiving when using primitive heat treating methods (i.e. one brick forge), and makes a very tough blade. It also grinds/files easier than some others in its annealed state (comes annealed from the supplier). Great starter steel and easy to come by in precision ground forms. Many steel suppliers will have some in stock. Look up steel suppliers in the book and start calling around. Find the proper thickness (1/8 to maybe 1/4) and you're set.

A length of railroad track can be used as an anvil in a pinch if properly (solidly) mounted to something heavy. It's better for it to be hardened, but if you're careful, you can forge a bit with the track in its raw state. It will dent some if you hit it with the hammer.

I would recommend starting with stock removal only and save forging to later. I'm still just figuring out how to grind well. And even with some of the most amazing blade smiths here who are forging steel, they still have to perform final grinding and sanding after forging the blade. So basically all forgers are still stock removers to some extent. Get the hang of grinding, and then add the wonderful world of fire and forge in later is my opinion.

--nathan
 
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