Economy, Good for knifemakers?

[irbailey]

I'm sure that the maker and collector are very closely financially related.
If you're a collector who can afford top end knives, then that is what you're going to buy.
The majority of my orders are for Loveless style knives, and I'm sure that is because they are a very cheap alternative. If you can afford the real thing, there is no way you will want to buy one from me, made from old saw blades!!
There is no way higher end collectors are going to buy from the small makers, and why would they? If you can afford to buy a knife by a top maker, your purchase is pretty much guaranteed to be a good investment. Buying from an unknown maker may get you a knife that you want, but its very unlikely that you will get your money back, come the day you wish to sell.
If I had money, I would have never started in the first place, as I could have
bought all the knives I wanted to own, rather than make something similar myself. I'm just grateful that what I enjoy doing is appreciated by people enough for them to want to buy from me.
The fact that the orders are still coming in at the moment is a big surprise to me. Incidently, the split between people wanting a knife for work, and collectors, is about 70/30.
How many people who change there minds and decide they no longer want one when I get round to making it remains to be seen Time will tell!


Ian

 

[RogerP]

Ian, I have always bought from makers covering a wide spectrum - from newer makers to established leaders in the field. I have always maintained that there are both excellent knives and excellent values to be had at a wide range of price points.

Some on this forum like to suggest - as often as they possibly can - that we shouldn't support newer or "lesser known" makers. And buy "support" I mean "purchase knives from". Don't confuse that with a majority view. You certainly won't find me signing that tune. So yes - some buyers of high end knives will not buy anything else - and there is nothing wrong with that choice. But IMHO, is IS wrong to suggest that this is the only way to go.

Roger

 

[Kevin Jones]

I don't think so, because the custom market is probably skewed in favor of higher popularity and more prestige of the makers in the industry.....toward the "stars" of our industry, if you will.

This may mean that only the most popular, and most expensive makers will be considered by the new collector, or even seasoned collector, out of ignorance.
I was not addressing new collectors but collectors in general. In most cases new collectors will not be willing and/or able to pay what the expensive makers ask and I don't assume seasoned collectors are ignorant if seasoned.

We need to educate the first time buyer and let him know what all his options are for buying that custom knife they want that they don't think they can afford. We need to let them know that they don't have to go to the "best", most expensive makers to get a good quality custom knife that they'll be proud of. The first, second or third hand made knife for their collection doesn't necessarily have to come from Dean.
I totally agree as my previous post was addressing my objection to collectors being encouraged to support new makers rather than being educated so they could make their own decision as who to buy from. A big difference in my view. As said, a first time buyer's knife doesn't have to be a Dean or from a new maker, it's totally their decision. In my collecting seminars, I don't advise as to which maker or maker's knives to buy, only that collectors educate themselves to determine what knives they will be satisfied with long term before buying on impulse.

A young or new, first time custom collector may not know where to really turn to for his/her first or second order of their desired custom knife. And, because their knowledge of custom knives may be limited due to only hearing about the most well known knife makers, a newly interested collector may believe that his only avenue for purchasing a custom knife is by ordering it from one of the better knowns, which isn't a bad thing, but it could turn a new custom buyer off if his first or second custom knife order is going to cost him too much to get it.

New makers enable custom ownership at a perceived affordable price. Even for long-time collectors, like me. The key word here is "perceived".

IMO, now is the time to promote and market custom knives targeting first time buyers along with promoting the younger custom, more affordable makers. It's a good match for both parties, IMO.

We disagree here. Again, I believe new collectors benefit from being educated rather than being influenced. Who are you, I or anyone for that matter to tell other collectors who to buy from?

You seem to care what happens in the custom knife community, and that new collectors and makers get off on the right foot. Have you considered joining the CKCA since it was founded along these principles and offers a platform to achieve these goals.

 

[RWS]

You seem to care what happens in the custom knife community, and that new collectors and makers get off on the right foot. Have you considered joining the CKCA since it was founded along these principles and offers a platform to achieve these goals.

Nah, I don't like the members.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Ian, I have always bought from makers covering a wide spectrum - from newer makers to established leaders in the field. I have always maintained that there are both excellent knives and excellent values to be had at a wide range of price points.

Some on this forum like to suggest - as often as they possibly can - that we shouldn't support newer or "lesser known" makers. And buy "support" I mean "purchase knives from". Don't confuse that with a majority view. You certainly won't find me signing that tune. So yes - some buyers of high end knives will not buy anything else - and there is nothing wrong with that choice. But IMHO, is IS wrong to suggest that this is the only way to go.

Roger

If you are addressing me Roger (I guess we all know you are) you couldn't be farther from the truth. I believe most here know I support all makers and collectors and the community in general by effort, money and action, not just by lip service.
I am not saying collectors shouldn't support or buy from newer or lesser know makers, just they shouldn't be pressured too. I choose to collector mostly upper tier makers because that's my preference, though I do collect Will Leavitt (have one and another on order), Larry Mensch, Creig Camerer, Kyle Royer, have owned many Herb Derr pieces and will continue to buy knives from newer/lessor known makers in the future. I buy from makers who I know well, like and their knives and way of doing business fits my collecting philosophy. IMO, the current two pieces that Kyle and Phillip Patton have displayed on this forum are as good quality as one will find.

Roger, why don't you just put me on ignore?

 

[Kevin Jones]

Nah, I don't like the members.

:thumbup: I like someone who gives it to me straight with no beating around the bush.

 

[sheathmaker]

Nah, I don't like the members.

I am a member of CKCA

I don't think I know you

I don't think you know me

What is it specifically about me that you don't like?

Let me know and I'll try to change

Sorry for the thread detour, but I had to ask.

Best Regards.

Paul

 

[jdm61]

I am a member of CKCA

I don't think I know you

I don't think you know me

What is it specifically about me that you don't like?

Let me know and I'll try to change

Sorry for the thread detour, but I had to ask.

Best Regards.

Paul

Maybe it's all of those creepy animal skins that you have hanging around the house. A bit too "Silence Of The Lambs" ya know

 

[RogerP]

If you are addressing me Roger (I guess we all know you are) you couldn't be farther from the truth. I believe most here know I support all makers and collectors and the community in general by effort, money and action, not just by lip service.

Kevin. I have a pretty good idea where I stand in proximity to the truth, thanks all the same.

For example, from your earlier pronouncements on the subject.:

I hope I don't appear to be a "Knife Snob" however no, I do not buy collection pieces form lessor known makers. I may buy a very inexpensive piece I find unique or cool and intend to use hard in the field. Why?

First, my collection is very focused and all my knives are acquired first for my enjoyment and second as an investment. I also want all my Knife dollars going to makers who I support and who support me and my collection.

-----------

I don't just support the brighter lights, as I said I support some of the newer makers every day. Just not monetarily.

------------
All I'm saying is there's a risk associated with supporting the lessor known makers. You could even say that a new or lessor known maker has let his supporters down if they just decide to stop making knives some day.

Yes - those are excerpted - I'm not going to reproduce the whole thing, which can be found here:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=496649

But it's enough to illustrate my point.

Kevin - please explain how saying we shouldn't buy from lesser known makers isn't telling collectors how they should spend their money? You know, the very thing you accuse RWS of doing?

Roger, why don't you just put me on ignore?

I can fully understand why you might wish me to do so, but that's not going to happen. As you mentioned - I'm just trying to provide an alternate view. This is a discussion forum. Discussion often involves presenting different views of a given issue.

In my view - collectors should learn as much as they can about the diverse field of custom knives. But it is ultimately a voyage of self-discovery - there is no universal platform applicable to all. When he or she figures out what appeals to them about custom knives and why, they are in a position to make purchases which will bring them satisfaction and foster long-term enthusiasm for the field. It would be consummate arrogance to suggest that the factors which bring satisfaction to one collector - however vocal - should apply to all.

Collectors should make informed purchase decisions and buy knives that make them happy - whether those knives come from newer makers or seasoned veterans, lesser-knowns or super stars. Good knives, good deals, good values, and most importantly - good people - can be found at all levels. I don't seek to encourage collectors to buy from any one group. But I stand in opposition to those who seek to discourage them from buying from a particular group.

Roger

 

[RogerP]

Nah, I don't like the members.

Now you've gone and hurt my feelings. I am a member, too. Lots of real good people in that group. Kevin and a good many others have accomplished much in a very short period of time.

Roger

 

[RWS]

I am a member of CKCA

I don't think I know you

I don't think you know me

What is it specifically about me that you don't like?

Let me know and I'll try to change

Sorry for the thread detour, but I had to ask.

Best Regards.

Paul

Sheathmaker(and Roger), you're right. We don't know each other. If you did know me, you'd probably have laughed at my post. I'm pretty sure that if you and I ever do meet, we'd get along real well.

If you didn't like me when we met, I'm sure I could buy enough drinks for us to at least help you consider the possibility.

Some of my posting habits have been influenced by my participation in the more, how do you say, less serious sub-forums of Bladeforums. I joke around quite a bit.

With that said, I absolutely, without a doubt think that any organization that exists to promote knife, and gun ownership, is extremely important to me.

Kevin sort of challenged the convictions of my posts with an invitation to join the organization in order to validate them which was perfectly legitimate. At least that's how I interpreted it.

My response was all I could think of before I left my office for the evening.

I belong to a number of organizations that take my time. Mostly professional and financial type things that enable me to keep current and help in my very time-consuming profession......not to mention the time I try and spend with my three kids.

I come here to BF to unwind and have some fun with friends, many of whom I've never met, but would gladly stand beside them in any battle to preserve our right to keep our rights alive to possess the knives and firearms we own.

 

[Kohai999]

Sheathmaker(and Roger), you're right. We don't know each other. If you did know me, you'd probably have laughed at my post. I'm pretty sure that if you and I ever do meet, we'd get along real well.

I come here to BF to unwind and have some fun with friends, many of whom I've never met, but would gladly stand beside them in any battle to preserve our right to keep our rights alive to possess the knives and firearms we own.

I know RWS from a long time ago...I'll stand with, for and by him. For what it is worth.

No need for the feathers getting ruffled...he's a Bastid.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kevin. I have a pretty good idea where I stand in proximity to the truth, thanks all the same.

For example, from your earlier pronouncements on the subject.:



Yes - those are excerpted - I'm not going to reproduce the whole thing, which can be found here:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=496649

But it's enough to illustrate my point.

Kevin - please explain how saying we shouldn't buy from lesser known makers isn't telling collectors how they should spend their money? You know, the very thing you accuse RWS of doing?


I can fully understand why you might wish me to do so, but that's not going to happen. As you mentioned - I'm just trying to provide an alternate view. This is a discussion forum. Discussion often involves presenting different views of a given issue.

In my view - collectors should learn as much as they can about the diverse field of custom knives. But it is ultimately a voyage of self-discovery - there is no universal platform applicable to all. When he or she figures out what appeals to them about custom knives and why, they are in a position to make purchases which will bring them satisfaction and foster long-term enthusiasm for the field. It would be consummate arrogance to suggest that the factors which bring satisfaction to one collector - however vocal - should apply to all.

Collectors should make informed purchase decisions and buy knives that make them happy - whether those knives come from newer makers or seasoned veterans, lesser-knowns or super stars. Good knives, good deals, good values, and most importantly - good people - can be found at all levels. I don't seek to encourage collectors to buy from any one group. But I stand in opposition to those who seek to discourage them from buying from a particular group.

Roger

Below is the complete post.
Funny that you never make the effort to quote anyone's whole post yet you will search back what, almost two years to find one of my old posts.

Still don't see where I stated that anyone shouldn't buy from lesser known makers.
I'm only stating my collecting practices, observations and opinions when that post was written.
And notice below I'm making an observation about collectors spreading their knife dollars widely in supporting makers that dabble or are hobbyist knifemakers. The newer makers here on the forum that I referenced in my above post (Erik, Kyle, Stephan, Joe, Phillip and such) are not dabblers or hobbyist, they are serious maker/businessmen who make serious knives.

I was just suggesting that you put me on ignore, because it seems I really bother you.

I guess I could probably dig through years of your old post as well and find some interesting stuff, but them I have more productive things to do.

Good thread Keith. :thumbup:

I hope I don't appear to be a "Knife Snob" however no, I do not buy collection pieces form lessor known makers. I may buy a very inexpensive piece I find unique or cool and intend to use hard in the field. Why?

First, my collection is very focused and all my knives are acquired first for my enjoyment and second as an investment. I also want all my Knife dollars going to makers who I support and who support me and my collection.

Second, I believe one principle reason we have a maker/collector ratio that is becoming more and more unbalanced is that collectors spread their collection dollars too widely and try to support too many new makers that dabble in the craft, rather than supporting makers that put their sweat, blood and life into it.

And third, there's much more effective and productive ways for a major collector to help and support new and/or lessor known makers than throwing a few profit dollars their way.

These lessor known maker's benefit much more by collectors following, critiquing, educating and promoting their work in conversations, forums and in the media.
I will take this a step farther than lessor known makers. I do not own one Lin Rhea knife, however I don't miss a chance to tell anyone that will listen how good a knife maker and businessman he is. Another, Karl Anderson. And I could list lessor known makers as well.

There are probably 10-12 collectors on this forum that help and promote lessor known makers every day without buying their knives on a regular basics.
I'm sure mega collectors such as Phil Lobred and Don Guild have helped turn many lessor known makers of the past into the stars of today without buying from them all.

Anyone who doesn't agree, then let me have it.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Sheathmaker(and Roger), you're right. We don't know each other. If you did know me, you'd probably have laughed at my post. I'm pretty sure that if you and I ever do meet, we'd get along real well.

If you didn't like me when we met, I'm sure I could buy enough drinks for us to at least help you consider the possibility.

Some of my posting habits have been influenced by my participation in the more, how do you say, less serious sub-forums of Bladeforums. I joke around quite a bit.

With that said, I absolutely, without a doubt think that any organization that exists to promote knife, and gun ownership, is extremely important to me.

Kevin sort of challenged the convictions of my posts with an invitation to join the organization in order to validate them which was perfectly legitimate. At least that's how I interpreted it.

My response was all I could think of before I left my office for the evening.

I belong to a number of organizations that take my time. Mostly professional and financial type things that enable me to keep current and help in my very time-consuming profession......not to mention the time I try and spend with my three kids.

I come here to BF to unwind and have some fun with friends, many of whom I've never met, but would gladly stand beside them in any battle to preserve our right to keep our rights alive to possess the knives and firearms we own.

Actually RWS, I wasn't challenging you. It was a serious invitation. Though we don't always agree, I respect your convictions and your passion for what you believe. Thought Roger and I agree on most everything , some CKCA members don't. We do however all agree on our association's principles and our mission.

 

[RWS]

Actually RWS, I wasn't challenging you. It was a serious invitation. Though we don't always agree, I respect your convictions and your passion for what you believe. Thought Roger and I agree on most everything , some CKCA members don't. We do however all agree on our association's principles and our mission.

I appreciate that more than any post that I make here could convey, Kevin.

 

[irbailey]

Ian, I have always bought from makers covering a wide spectrum - from newer makers to established leaders in the field. I have always maintained that there are both excellent knives and excellent values to be had at a wide range of price points.

Some on this forum like to suggest - as often as they possibly can - that we shouldn't support newer or "lesser known" makers. And buy "support" I mean "purchase knives from". Don't confuse that with a majority view. You certainly won't find me signing that tune. So yes - some buyers of high end knives will not buy anything else - and there is nothing wrong with that choice. But IMHO, is IS wrong to suggest that this is the only way to go.

Roger

Thats a fair point Roger, and an attitude which I think clearly shows that you have a love of the knife, rather than the (possible) investment value.
I guess knife collecting is the same as any other collecting. I used to collect militaria (pre children!) and found that the starting point items, generally common and therefore cheap, soon lost some of the sparkle once I moved up to more higher end items. A cloth badge soon becomes second fiddle to an MG 42!!
As for the attitude of high end collectors, I can't see someone with a case full of Fuegens suddenly wanting to add a Bailey to them!
That said, to discourage people from buying low end knives, although wrong in my opinion, will not make much difference, as these knives are all that a lot of people can afford.

Ian

 

[Kevin Wilkins]

I am also looking for talented young knifemakers.

Why not talented, experienced! knifemakers?!!

 

[RogerP]

Kevin sort of challenged the convictions of my posts with an invitation to join the organization in order to validate them which was perfectly legitimate. At least that's how I interpreted it.

My response was all I could think of before I left my office for the evening.

I belong to a number of organizations that take my time. Mostly professional and financial type things that enable me to keep current and help in my very time-consuming profession......not to mention the time I try and spend with my three kids.

I come here to BF to unwind and have some fun with friends, many of whom I've never met, but would gladly stand beside them in any battle to preserve our right to keep our rights alive to possess the knives and firearms we own.

I totally understand that - I hope you took my "hurt feelings" comment in the light tone that was intended. :thumbup:

Roger

 

[RogerP]

Below is the complete post.
Funny that you never make the effort to quote anyone's whole post yet you will search back what, almost two years to find one of my old posts.

Funny how you don't seem to acknowledge that I a) stated that the quote was exerpted and b) provide a link not only to the entire post, but to the entire thread chock full of your posts.

Oh - and the search feature allows you to find key words from titles of threads. Searching for "lesser" in the title brought up that thread right quick. Poring over two years worth of your posts is not something I am up for.

Still don't see where I stated that anyone shouldn't buy from lesser known makers. .

Then you didn't read the whole thread.

I'm only stating my collecting practices, observations and opinions when that post was written.
And notice below I'm making an observation about collectors spreading their knife dollars widely in supporting makers that dabble or are hobbyist knifemakers. The newer makers here on the forum that I referenced in my above post (Erik, Kyle, Stephan, Joe, Phillip and such) are not dabblers or hobbyist, they are serious maker/businessmen who make serious knives..

All of those guys are or recently were newer / lesser-known makers. And yes, they are good guys turning out quality knives and solid values. Which is rather my point. Since when does the term "newer , lesser known" apply excleusively to "dabblers" or "hobbyists"? Fisk was a newer / lesser-known maker once. I sure as heck had never heard of him before when I bought an Arkansas camp knife from him back in 1989.

I was just suggesting that you put me on ignore, because it seems I really bother you. ..

Someone in a recent thread described you as a politician. I think that was apt.

Roger

 

[STR]

I keep a pretty low key and can't honestly say I work each and everyday but I do get quite a bit of shop time. Things have picked up for me since the economic downturn but I think my pricing has always been pretty reasonable and I kind of did what A.G. did in my pricing and came up with a new model to use a cheaper but highly usable blade in a folder and sell it at a huge discount in my own effort to keep things going in a time of struggle for so many.

In our family we have had three members of the family laid off or just let go by their places of employment and some worked there for many many years thinking they had it made until retirement. So, this has hit home here and I'm sure each of you can site examples of how your own families and friends have been affected.

I wish the best to each of you. Chin up. :thumbup:

STR