EDC Choices - A personal reflection, an unfortunate situation and a few questions...

I have no training at all in knife fighting, but I have read through a good deal of a book by Michael Janich "Knife Fighting: A Practical Course" (I'll finish it fairly soon...it's not excessively long, but I'm reading it in batches a few chapters at a time). It's better than nothing, and I definitely am glad to have read what I have so far, even if I never get to put any of it to practical use (I sure hope I'm never in a situation to have to). If someone attacks me and clearly wants blood, rather than just money or valuables, it doesn't matter what I have on hand...I'll try to defend myself, and as I always have a Spyderco in my pocket I figured I might as well give myself at least some basic rudimentary things to store in the back of my mind for a worst case scenario.
 
Sorry this happened to you, but at least you were not seriously harmed. I have a somewhat similar experience that occurred recently I'll share in another thread.
 
Loansharkx said:
Another point to ponder, you didn't escalate the violence, the violence was already escalated and brought to you.

It was your choice not to answer that violence, however, stating you didn't want to escalate is a false premise... It was already escalated by others.
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I think I get where you're going here but I have to respectfully disagree with not wanting to escalate things being a 'false premise'. Sure, I got a bit banged up and lost some cash (which is frustrating and somewhat challenging for my ego to deal with) but they didn't stomp on my head, etc., etc. I think it is pretty clear that they got what they wanted and once they had pretty much let me be. If I had cut the guy behind me I truly believe that things would have escalated beyond where they did. Again, I feel like a dick for letting this happen but I refuse to embelish/exaggerate how I 'handled' this situation. I think it is clear that the other guys in this situation handled me. Completely. Which leaves an odd feeling of impotence and weakness.

It did actually strike me at the time how bad this could have become. I remember clearly considering this, surprisingly, in a somewhat calm manner - I got my right arm free, I had my chin tucked really hard against the choke and I maintained my feet yet at the same time part of my brain was thinking if I do cut the guy behind me all bets are off and as others like tvenuto, Dknight16, 3rdGenRigger and Blinkknives have said I think my odds were pretty poor if they'd wanted to do me further harm as a group.

Let me be clear, I stand a 'mighty' [read ironic tone there please!] 5'8" and whilst I am in reasonable shape at 190lbs, am fairly strong and I do physically train (it's kind of my job) I am fast approaching 41 years old and never was an amazing fighter even when I was boxing regularly 18 years ago(!!). Add to that fact that I am a horrible sprinter (i.e. in trying to get away). 1-2-1 I think I stand a chance of holding my own but who knows I've been put on my ass by guys both bigger AND smaller than me before. With higher numbers I just don't know.

Maybe I need to pick up my contact training but honestly the thought of starting all that with the frequent macho BS that goes along with it is off-putting... Short answer is honestly; I don't know what my next steps are to regain a slightly improved confidence in such situations.

Forgive my rambling. I appreciate anyone taking the time to read my jumbled thoughts on this (even if I happen to disagree with you on a specific point).

Thanks,

Ben
 
3rdGenRigger said:
I have no training at all in knife fighting, but I have read through a good deal of a book by Michael Janich "Knife Fighting: A Practical Course" (I'll finish it fairly soon...it's not excessively long, but I'm reading it in batches a few chapters at a time). It's better than nothing, and I definitely am glad to have read what I have so far, even if I never get to put any of it to practical use (I sure hope I'm never in a situation to have to). If someone attacks me and clearly wants blood, rather than just money or valuables, it doesn't matter what I have on hand...I'll try to defend myself, and as I always have a Spyderco in my pocket I figured I might as well give myself at least some basic rudimentary things to store in the back of my mind for a worst case scenario.
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Thanks 3rdGen. I'll try to pick up a copy - I too have never had any training on knife fighting. Something has to be better than nothing right?

I appreciate the thought and the recommendation.

Ben
 
John_0917 said:
Sorry this happened to you, but at least you were not seriously harmed. I have a somewhat similar experience that occurred recently I'll share in another thread.
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Hey John, thank for your thoughts and I do know that I was blessed for things not to have turned out worse. Sorry to hear that you've had your own challenges. By all means start another thread but feel free to share here. I certainly wouldn't consider it 'hijacking the thread' ;).

That said, I am still really keen to hear people's thoughts to the Matriarch... :)

Best,

Ben
 
Peroni1973 said:
Thanks 3rdGen. I'll try to pick up a copy - I too have never had any training on knife fighting. Something has to be better than nothing right?

I appreciate the thought and the recommendation.

Ben
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That was my thought as well...anything is better than nothing. It's also explained in such a way that you don't need any sort of prior knowledge or training beforehand. Even down to the proper stance while holding a knife (Which I would've expected to be different if I hadn't read it), or the proper grip for certain techniques (This I did have a good idea on beforehand). I'm 6' tall, but I only weight about 160 pounds, and I have done a little boxing...but the stance for boxing is different than the ideal stance while holding a knife. I have it on my Kindle...it also has some illustrations which help to properly explain the concepts being discussed for the benefit of someone as fighting ignorant as I am. I'd try to run or punch my way out of a situation before drawing a knife...but if I gave up my money and it was only one or two guys and they still kept advancing I'd definitely be glad to have a knife.

Situational awareness is definitely your best defense though...and something that's becoming more and more rare. I find it shocking how often I've had to basically panic stop for headphone wearing pedestrians who are too busy texting while listening to music to hear my truck (Which isn't quiet), and don't even look for traffic before J-Walking across the street...they'll just step into the road without even looking. I grew up on an acreage and my parents grilled me from a young age that in the city you should always look for cars before stepping into traffic, even at a crosswalk (I don't J-Walk unless there's no cars anywhere nearby because I hate having to stop for them in my truck). I also seem to recall reading a few months ago about a woman (In NY I think) who was texting and not watching where she was going, and ended up walking right off a pier and falling into the ocean. I also seem to recall reading that she was rescued quickly, and was lucky it was a fast rescue because she didn't know how to swim properly. Mindless sheeple.
 
Peroni1973 said:
Hey John, thank for your thoughts and I do know that I was blessed for things not to have turned out worse. Sorry to hear that you've had your own challenges. By all means start another thread but feel free to share here. I certainly wouldn't consider it 'hijacking the thread' ;).

That said, I am still really keen to hear people's thoughts to the Matriarch... :)

Best,

Ben
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I'm not going to go into detail on the specifics, but I know from first hand experience recently that the Matriarch can deliver some absolutely horrific wounds, even when used in a totally defensive manner.

Edit: I should also make clear that my use of lethal force is taken under much less scrutiny and with a much wider legal breadth here in Texas than it is in the PRC. The short version is that I was attacked by a dog in an apartment building hallway, couldn't shoot it because of the close quarters and concrete all around but used the Matriarch to stop the attack and the dog subsequently died from the wounds. Local PD ruled it justified and I filed suit against the owner yesterday morning (I was bitten).
 
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Ji Ben,

I am not 100% sure but I was told that locking folders are prohibited in China. I think you may need to make it clear before getting trouble. Just a friendly reminder.
 
Hi ben, you did the right thing. Money and pride you can replace, your life is not so easy. Seems like they were a criminal gang who have done this many times before, they targeted you and knew exactly how much force to use in order to get what they wanted. As most police officers and self defense instructors will tell you, against these odds if you had pulled out a knife, the likeliest outcome would be that they took it from you and used it against you. These guys are criminals, they didn't hesitate to target and rob you and they wouldn't hesitate to slash or stab you. All they want is money and valuables and they will do what it takes to get it.

I think the lesson you can take from this is to be safer when you are in a foreign city. Don't flash your cash and gadgets in public. Separate your money and keep it in different pockets. Try to avoid poorer areas and use taxi's instead of walking. If you feel like you are being followed find some type of bar, restaurant or public place and wait, maybe they will get bored and go or you can ask someone to call the police.

By all means take some self defense classes if it helps your pride but I think 90% of us would have done the same as you. I think even most cage fighters wouldn't like the 4:1 odds. In Hollywood they make it look easy but it's not real life.

As far as knives go you should take a look at the Spyderco Street Beat and Street Bowie. They were designed by Fred Perrin as defensive weapons. Fixed blade knives will always beat a folder.

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Stay safe
 
Ben,

You made the decision (albeit felt it was forced) not to escalate. You did not forget you had the knife but did not pull it. For better or worse, that moment was your decision. Saying otherwise is not very true.

In post mortem analysis, the feeling of helplessness and wanting to 'make it up' by taking up training and considering weapon is all natural. It is also natural that as time goes, it also will heal. It's a post violence trauma, which we all as human go through when subjected to physical (and psychological) violence.

I've been in similar situation, and didn't pull any even though I had knife on me (many years ago, in my town). Been also in NY, HK, Manila, Shanghai, Kuala Lumpur and Singapore. Strangely, the only altercation(s) were all in home country. Perhaps because at home I got over confident that I 'know' the place/route/neighbourhood.

China authority decision against foreigner committing criminal offense (carrying Caly and using it will be considered one) is unpredictable. Depends who you are and who you know (your contact in China). Sal might give better insight but it might be a topic for another thread.

Train and pick your 'weapon' if that helps the healing process. Although I'd say your Endura is good enough (Mr. Janich showed in a video what a Delica could do). Keep safe and I hope you'll get over the trauma.
 
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Hello Ben,
First off let me say Glad you walked away from it. Literally. Not carried, walked. And I also want to impart that the decision to reach in your pocket and pull out a SD Folder is each man's to make. There are tons of "It happened to me" posts on this forum and I won't take any of the fire out of that....but for you to make the decision to deploy your knife and insert it into another human being is a life changer. If you carry for that purpose you need to know beyond a shadow of a doubt you can follow through. A professional violent criminal will immediately capitalize on that initial hesitation. I certainly would.
For most street thugs, muggings are a business transaction. Nothing more. The "merchant" wants your money in exchange for the "customer's" safety. Thats it. Thank you for Shopping. You stated you have little to no training in craftwork so IMHO you made the right decision indicative that you are here among us to post it.
That all being said and the experience motivating you to prevent future situations. (We're already discussing Books to read) I would suggest looking into the SpyderCo Civilian, a knife designed specifically for the type of encounter you discribed. Read the right uo on that knife and its design concept, it may be just the thing you are looking for. I carry one daily for one purpose only.
 
Glad you made it through in one piece. :)
Scary environment, being outnumbered like that especially not on your home turf. I've been in situations where I was outnumbered, and rather than pull weapons it turned into an all out fist fight. You made the right choice, and for future reference, the Matriarch 2 may be a good option. Stay safe.
 
Peroni1973 said:
Maybe I need to pick up my contact training but honestly the thought of starting all that with the frequent macho BS that goes along with it is off-putting... Short answer is honestly; I don't know what my next steps are to regain a slightly improved confidence in such situations.

Forgive my rambling. I appreciate anyone taking the time to read my jumbled thoughts on this (even if I happen to disagree with you on a specific point).

Thanks,

Ben
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That's one of the reasons I don't engage in it. I just don't want to be around that mentality. Besides, even if you were an expert fighter I still don't see 4 against 1 as good odds. The only real thing you can do is be aware and even that will never be 100 percent effective. Sometimes S just happens. You kept your cool, kept your brain and came out on the other side with very little harm done. I can't think of any better way to have handled that situation. We all want to see ourselves as ninja masters who win the day but that's a fantasy pure and simple.
 
Guys, thanks for your further input and thoughts - really. It is oddly comforting to share openly the lack of control which I experienced. I am grateful and thankful for your suggestions.

I don't want to over-play this, I am okay and not incredibly traumatized by the whole event, but would express it more accurately as being brought back down to earth with a bump (or two!). I realize that plenty of people have been through far worse things, including some of you guys.

I do however really appreciate and value your support and kind words so thanks again.

Ben
 
"I don't know what my next steps are to regain a slightly improved confidence in such situations."

I know how you feel. I was car jacked in front of my house. I had a Buck Mayo in my pocket, but did not use it. I luckily got off unhurt, out $60 cash, $80 to change my locks and got my car back in two hours...thanks Mr. Policeman.

The only thing that works is time. It took at least 3 months before I would walk the dog but not keep my house in sight if someone was still home (the dog is our burglar alarm and since he's 1/2 pitt bull he's also our weapon). Once I was out walking and a beat van turned the corner and the door flew open. I was ready for drive by action, heart pumping, dog on the short leash...it was only an old women whose door lock was broken :) That foolishness helped me calm down.

What I did for "my head" was buy a custom Terzuola, the classic ATCF. I had it made for me by Bob. Just ordering it felt good, it took about 9 months to get it. I carry it for security not to use for protection. It's a mind calmer. It also has doubled in value in the last few years :)

I also carry my Matriarch a lot more often with another blade for regular use. I gave it away to a family memeber who wanted it, but was nervous not having it so the Matriarch was replaced. I also bought a Benchmade 530, Mel Pardue classic, a nice little stabber that is light and very unobtrusive. I've had a G10 Harpy for about 15 years and carry that as well, particularly when I did not have my Matriarch. The Harpy's curved blade with serrations is wicked for self defence, but the small size, curved blade and utilitarian purpose makes it legal in many places where dirks, daggers, or blades with an evil purpose are not allowed. I rarely go out w/o a knife that can be used to severly hurt someone, even if I have to carry two blades.

I don't really plan in using them for self-defense, but it gives confidence. If I'm on the ground being kicked and absolutely fear death, I'll do some damage before I go out :)
 
As most have noted, a blade for self defense vs. multiple attackers is a bad, bad proposition for all involved. Aside from the unlikeliness of getting out of the situation with as few injuries as you did, prosecution is going to be bad. If you are regularly able to engage 4 attackers with a blade and win, then your blade is most likely illegal, or you will go down in a trial in most locales.

As you now know, situational awareness is pretty much be all, end all. Knowing you're a target, mitigating your target status, and disposing of things that make you a target is good.

I would add that deployment is far, far more important than simply the kind of blade you have. I can speak from experience that a police g10 without a pocket clip is almost useless in a stress-induced situation. Sal invented pocket clips for a reason, but for truly fast speed, fixed blades are where it's at. Training actually getting your knife in hand is much more practical than buying another piece of steel that you can't open quickly, reliably, and from awkward positions (jammed against a wall, with your nearby hand in a half nelson, your strong hand attempting to stop an arm from choking you out, etc.). That said, knives are a bad way to go.

Much better to actually work on your sprinting. You're bad at it, so what. Better than they expect and can muster themselves will protect you from all but Usain Bolt.

That said, buy a knife to make yourself feel better, you earned it.

Zero
 
Michael Janich's new Martial Blade Concepts DVD's are a thousand times better than his old book. You can find little ten minute clips on youtube. They are put out by stay safe media. His instruction is clear, concise and very logical. Also he teaches a "less than lethal" method. He wants to stop the attack, not be up on horrible charges.

Also dealing with Macho types in a martial arts studio is a good way to practice dealing with them in the street. I know some LEO's study the book "Verbal Judo" to try an de-escalate situations.

Glad you are safe
 
On the probability you take up training, mercop (he usually posts in Prac Tac subforum) seems to be sensible & I like reading his thoughts (and rehetorical questions).

It took me about 3-6 months to let go the adrenalin rush, 'what if' thoughts when not occupied withs something, etc. You can call it letting go the hurt/trauma :)

You're here to tell the story, that's what counts. And your GB still gets to be carried & used by the owner ;)
 
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You made the right call,don't feel bad because God had your back that day. Money isn't a big deal in the big scheme of things,life is.Had you taken out one or more of your assailants in this scenario it's possible you'd be stuck in foreign prison without the constitutional rights to a fair trial.
 
If you started stabbing dudes in another country, their courts may not find in your favor. I sure wouldn't want to be in jail in shanghai. But I wouldn't want to be dead behind a dumpster either, tough call. Hope you never have to make that decision again
 
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