Edge holding ability of ATS 34

M

miden

Joined
Sep 9, 2005
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835
Hi Guys,
I have only made a handful of knives, all but one are made of ATS 34.
My very first knife was a carving knife for my wife.
I sent it to Crucible for the heat treatment so I assume it was professionally done, however, it does not seem to hold an edge very well.
I know there are a lot of opinions regarding the best steel for a blade but this is all relative and it is not what I am asking because this mule has been beaten to death and the debate always gets ugly.
I sharpen with a Lansky sharpener.
Can anyone who uses this steel please share their experience regarding edge retention?
Much appreciated.

Mike
 
ATS-34 is horrible, awful stuff.

Just my oppinion, but hey, I don't like any stainless steels for knife blades :D ;)
 
Thanks Don,
just the articulate, unprovocative sort of reply I was hoping for.:p

Okay, I will bite, what steel do you prefer for blades but seeing as you have opened the can of worms, please supply a valid reason why.;)

Mike
 
Perhaps it was a mishap in the heat treatment? I have never used his services, but a lot of people swear by Paul Bos for heat treating their stainless steel.
 
Well, I guess I asked for it. :)

I like W2, W1, 1086M and 01. Through proper thermal cycling and heat treating these steels will produce very fine grain, get scarry sharp, are very tough and hold an edge very well.

I was talking to Tony Bose a while back and he said " he also prefers simple high carbon steels and wished he could use them in his knives but most collectors wouldn't stand for it".

Now, stainless isn't all bad and it has its place. I just don't like it. :D

Editt to add. Russ, pretty much hit the nail on the head. W2 is good stuff.
 
ATS34 is a fine steel. All other things being equal, it has better edge retention than 440C and good stain resistance. It is about on par with 154CM for composition.

I'm not crazy about it because of inclusions that seem to show up a lot these days. There are better steels, but if you can't get it to hold a reasonable edge, something is amiss. Possibilities might include;

  • Edge geometry
  • Heat Treat (I didn't know Crucible did heat treatment of ATS34)
  • Sharpening (A razor edge doesn't last too long.) (Sometimes the microserrations of a coarser stone cut better than a fine polished edge.)
  • Misidentified steel. (I stock ten different steels. We label every piece and re-label when we cut. I don't think we have messed any up, but anyone who says its impossible is in denial.)
Rob!
 
sunfishman said:
Well, I guess I asked for it. :)

I like W2, W1, 1086M and 01. Through proper thermal cycling and heat treating these steels will produce very fine grain, get scarry sharp, are very tough and hold an edge very well.

I was talking to Tony Bose a while back and he said " he also prefers simple high carbon steels and wished he could use them in his knives but most collectors wouldn't stand for it".

Now, stainless isn't all bad and it has its place. I just don't like it. :D

Editt to add. Russ, pretty much hit the nail on the head. W2 is good stuff.
Click to expand...
W2, W1, 1086M and 01. Through proper thermal cycling and heat treating these steels will produce very fine grain, get scarry sharp, are very tough and hold an edge very well

Don's trying to say 154CM oopppps ATS34 :o
is more pricey
harder to work
needs a higher temp in the H/T
needs cryo
and is just about the best Stainless steel you can buy for the money in the super steels..

other wise, why would they sell so much of it :D
I go both ways..in catering
154CM for SS lovers
and
O1 for the higher end Carbon..lovers

I will stoop to others if asked to..:D
1095 for the lowly beat the snot out of them type..
of coarse you could spend less and get less if you want ;) :D

with most the kidding aside 154CM is just about the same as ATS34
you say
I have only made a handful of knives, all but one are made of ATS 34.
..
Click to expand...
when you say hand full, then go to say the one is a problem.. are the rest ok from that batch of steel?
I think you got some bad steel or something? I don't see Mr Boss messing up that steel
you'll need a good Diamond sharpener and a steady hand to sharpen it well..
if your steel's treat is right..and the steel is what you believe it to be..

I sharpen all mine on the belt grinder with a 15 micron belt and buff the edge..
being very carfull it don't take your hand off or worse, if it catchs. :eek:
 
Thanks Don,
Why would collectors not stand for it if Tony Bose used simple high carbon steels for knives? Just the fact that they rust more easily?
No curve ball, just curious.

Rob! and Dan,
I generally sharpen to 25 degrees, and yes, Crucible do heat treat this steel, they do a cryo treatment as part of the deal.
As for a bad batch of steel, well, I have purchased the steel at various times so I doubt that all the steel was from the same batch.
I did in fact notice that some had a fine finish like it had been rolled and it had clearly been cut with a guillotine, some other had a finely bumpy finish all round and had clearly not been guillotined!?

When I say "handful" I mean 7 knives. The other one was an 01 blade which holds an edge well and cuts well according to the customer. Heat treatment also done by Crucible in Ontario. I must say the 01 blade seemed a bit soft when it came back but it cuts well. "Soft" meaning it had a couple of marks or, tiny dents in it that clearly happened after the heat treat.
What gives!?:confused:

Thanks for the replies.

Mike
 
miden said:
Thanks Don,
Why would collectors not stand for it if Tony Bose used simple high carbon steels for knives? Just the fact that they rust more easily?
No curve ball, just curious.

Mike
Click to expand...

Mike, rust is such a strong word. I can't answer for Tony but I assume his collectors want a more stain resistance steel. He has probably used more D2 than any other steel but has used a lot of ATS-34 and is using a lot of 440-V at present.

Dan, I think you are putting words in my mouth ;)
 
I have never used ATS34 before on a regular basis.

However, a buddy of mine gave me his old Benchmade folder which has had the snot used out of it. The main blade is all gapped up and folded over, and the smaller, secondary blade was simply dull.

With only a few minutes, a coarse 600(I believe) grit and smooth hard AR stone I cleaned both up to the point that you don't want to get on either edge.

While this is the ONLY real world experience I have with the steel I would have to say I was impressed.
 
Don,
pardon my indiscretion regarding the "r" word. Yes, an ugly word in knife making circles, I can imagine. Anyhow, you pretty much answered the question. ;)
Thanks.

Mike
 
I don't know what to tell you. The Loveless Shop uses it with great success, as do I. I've got customers that will go a full season skinning dear, dressing turkey, working Wild Boar, and the knives come back for clean up, and are still at times shaving. I know I have field dressed four deer in camp, including quartering them, and using the knife around camp, and it was still cutting. Sounds like something else is going on. The kitchen carving set may be a clue. I'm always seeing people carve a turkey on a ceramic plate. One hit on the plate will dull what ever part of the edge hits it. I also have noticed stone cutting boards being sold. These are not cutting boards folks. They are for rolling out dough. unfortunately, department stores, and their suppliers have gotten this one way wrong. Don Makes fantastic knives. No dig on him at all. But On this one point, we couldn't disagree more. Mike
 
I souldn't knock ATS-34, it isn't so bad, there are a bunch of great knives made with it. I just personaly don't like it, but like I said before, I don't like any of the stainless steels for knife blades. So ya'll need to take what I said as a personal opinion :)

Also wanted to add: Mike Lovett, you makes some super good looking knives.
 
I use ATS-34 too (heated treated to HRC 61 by Paul Bos). It holds an edge for a really long time and can keep up with D2 -plus, it takes a better finish.
 
Steel, schmeel...

How was it heat cycled, how was it normalized, how was it heat treated, how was it tempered. What do you want it to do?

If you don't want it to "readily" rust, use stainless. If you don't do your own heat treat, there are others that do a pretty decent job.

For me, I am in the forging stage of this journey. Not necessarily better or worse but it's what I like to do. I can do what I want with it. Gives me more freedom.

Stainless? Yeah, I still dabble in it. A few folks I know that live close to salt water wouldn't have it any other way. I don't blame 'em. Heck, even cobalt will rust down there...:D Just kidding of course but we all take this stuff a little too serious sometimes.

I 'spose what I am saying is to do what you want to do and what makes you comfortable in your own skin.

Craig
 
Mike,
I was thinking another factor causing your ats34 not to hold an edge could be if you over heated while finishing the knife after heat treat (grinding until the blade gets past the tempering temp). I love carbon steels but do have respect for good stainless steels and ATS34 is very good in my opinion. There are better and worse but that's another can of worms discussion... I'm sure Dan can vouch for that lol.
Mike
 
For me I prefer carbon steels, but for stainless I realy like ATS-34. Haven't run into any inclusions yet. I'd love to try the new CPM154 steel, but haven't yet.

Best way to get a good down and dirty idea of the heat treat is to sharpen and do the brass rod test. It's only one indication of perfromance, but if the edge stays bent it's a sure sign the steel is too soft and you've got a defective heat treat.

Anouther posibility is decarb. How thin did you grind it before sending to heat treat? What did the decarb colors look like and how heavy were they and was there any warpage? If the blade showes it's a little soft, grind it back an 1/8" and check it again if it's flat ground. Checking it with a file will also give you and indication of hardness, but it's a thing of feel you have to learn for yourself.
 
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