Edge Pro - Can't get burr near tip

Bo-dacious said:
Peter: so you mean I should buy those diamond stones sold on the edge pro site the 2 different ones course and fine or whatever in addition to the atoma?
Do you think I should charge extra if I just have to reprofile the tip? Not the whole blade?
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I own the diamond stones (fine and extra fine) sold on the EdgePro website and have been quite happy with them. However, since they are approx. 600 & 1200 grit respectively, they would not be suitable for reprofiling. The Atoma would be my first diamond stone purchase, then get finer grits from there. Also good are the Venev diamond stones. Just bear in mind that a Venev 1200 grit is not going to be equivalent to an EdgePro 1200 grit. The vendor who sells them has a grit chart which should help.

Here's my normal diamond stone progression on the EdgePro. Everyone has different opinions, but this is what I like:
  • Atoma 140 (if needed for reprofiling)
  • Venev 240 (again, only if needed)
  • Edge Pro Fine (600) (for a semi-sharp knife, e.g. barely slicing copy paper, I start here)
  • Edge Pro Extra Fine (1200)
  • Venev 800
Generally that's about where I stop, as I like a bit of tooth left on my edges for EDC use. If a person were going for a mirror polish, I'd continue as follows:
  • Venev 1200
  • Venev 2000
  • Edge Pro 3000 tape (I know this sounds like backtracking, but it helps resolve some of the Venev 2000 scratches to make a better polish)
  • Edge Pro 6000 tape
  • 1/2 micron diamond spray on leather
  • 1/4 micron diamond spray on leather
Like I said, different strokes for different folks, but this is what I do based on my own personal experiences sharpening. I have a ton of stones and will try different things from time to time. Having that flexibility is certainly nice.
 
Bo-dacious said:
I was wondering if I have to take the edge all the way back to the shoulder or if I can make sort of a micro bevel? Or would that be considered crap work?
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Bo-dacious said:
So I don't know what to do. If a customer brings me the knife, does the whole edge have to be super sharp or can I leave the last half inch?
Please help guys.
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Again, don't want to sound like a jerk, but if I gave you a knife to sharpen professionally and you left any portion of it with a lower degree of sharpness or consistency I would be supremely unhappy and would consider that to be poor quality work. If you're going to reprofile a knife, commit to it and do it all the way. If you're using a guided system, to me that means that the entire length of the cutting edge should be reprofiled to the same angle and should have a uniform level of sharpness and polish. Less than that is not acceptable to me personally and I wouldn't let anyone who does otherwise touch my knives and definitely would not want to pay for that level of work. The only exception to that would be if a customer were to specifically request such a thing and you were accommodating their request.
 
Me2: okay, so what do you guys do on the edge pro to fix this problem? I've found 3 options.
1. Change the angle of the tip
2. Change the angle of the rest of the blade
3. Change the angle of the stone to match the different angles on the knife.

I've found that changing the angle of the tip is quickest.
What do you guys find is the quicksst/best way?

Thanks,

Bo
 
I'll usually lower the angle at the tip and live with the wider bevel.
 
P PeterS84

IMHO, though I haven't used them in a bit, the Fine and Super Fine diamond hones from Edge Pro, (which I believe are Eze-Lap), are more aggressive than the 600 and 1200 grit designations would imply.

I do have a relatively recently acquired CKTG 140 grit diamond hone for the Edge Pro but have not had a need to employ it as yet. Figured it was cheap insurance if it came in handy down the road.
 
Blues said:
P PeterS84

IMHO, though I haven't used them in a bit, the Fine and Super Fine diamond hones from Edge Pro, (which I believe are Eze-Lap), are more aggressive than the 600 and 1200 grit designations would imply.

I do have a relatively recently acquired CKTG 140 grit diamond hone for the Edge Pro but have not had a need to employ it as yet. Figured it was cheap insurance if it came in handy down the road.
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I agree that they probably are more aggressive than a standard DMT stone at the same grit rating. Mine have worn in some, so it's not as pronounced as it once was. Likewise, I have a CKTG 400 grit diamond hone and that thing was CRAZY aggressive for a 400 grit -- much more so than my DMT course (325 grit) even when it was brand new. In fact, I used the CKTG 400 right after the 140 and stopped because it was removing so much material. To break it in, I used the CKTG 400 to reprofile a S110V Manix 2 instead of the 140 Atoma and it calmed down quite a bit afterward. But yes, there definitely is a disparity between the established benchmark of DMT hones and some of the off-brand/other diamond stones available from other sources. User beware, I suppose.
 
I would think you would sacrifice the blades abilities if you change the whole blade to match a thicker tip ... but you could and add a micro bevel ...

but for someone that wants a great slicer it would be best to profile the tip to match the desired blade angle ...

just IMHO

and it is not uncommon to get knives from factory that have a thicker tip angle but for me it's well worth correcting that on all but large choppers or butcher knives that usually you only use the belly anyway ... no detailed work
 
PeterS84 said:
Likewise, I have a CKTG 400 grit diamond hone and that thing was CRAZY aggressive for a 400 grit -- much more so than my DMT course (325 grit) even when it was brand new. In fact, I used the CKTG 400 right after the 140 and stopped because it was removing so much material. To break it in, I used the CKTG 400 to reprofile a S110V Manix 2 instead of the 140 Atoma and it calmed down quite a bit afterward. .
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Yeah, I have one of their 400/1000 bench stones and the first time I sharpened with the 1000 side I thought it was a DMT coarse! :p

(I spent a little time since then trying to smooth it out some.)
 
Check out how the blade gets ground at 2:17 in this video
If you check with calliper the edge is thicker in spots you have issues with. Same angle is going to produce wider looking bevel where it's thicker. So you gotta realize this first. Then you have to clamp your work with this realization in mind.

Imagine you clamp this big kabar in the middle, everything is perpendicular and when you are sharpening the belly and tip area as it curves the stone is way out there and the whole arm is at a decreased angle holding this stone and working away. You couple this with an already thicker measurement behind the edge in that area and your stone just working the shoulder and making bevel even wider.
IMG_0935_720x@2x.jpg

Now is that something your client wants?...

I don't have edge pro and this is all theoretical but you will get best results if you understand what's going on and learn how to clamp things better with your rig so it works in your favor
 
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Bo-dacious said:
Okay so I've discovered that some knives have 3 angles per side. One at the heel to the belly, one at the belly/tip and one at the very tip. [...] So I don't know what to do. If a customer brings me the knife, does the whole edge have to be super sharp or can I leave the last half inch?
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As someone else said, the entire blade needs to be sharpened any time you are calling what you do "knife sharpening".

This problem you are describing is definitely something you'll see in varying degrees on a lot of blades. The first thing to realize (again as someone else said) is that a given edge angle (say 15 degrees) will produce a much WIDER bevel in thicker stock than in thinner stock. So, if the knife maker chooses to leave the blade stock really thick near the tip, then the same angle at the tip produces a wider edge bevel. Some people find this visual look (varying width bevel getting wider and wider) to be ugly or a sign that something is "wrong" or that you screwed up. Others understand this and want the blade sharpened at the same angle no matter what.

So this is a point where you will need to educate your client and ask what their preference is.

You *can* sharpen the whole blade such that it has a uniform bevel width from heel to tip. This necessarily means changing the sharpening angle as you go, on blades like the ones we are talking about. It means making the angle larger as you go into the belly and then even larger yet as you approach the tip. You'll need some practice to get it right. My results in doing this have been mediocre. I can kinda do it, but I'm not very proficient. I think I'd get better if I did a couple of dozen blades like this and got to experiment a bit. So will you.

I don't know exactly how you'd do this with an edge pro, but it certainly can be done. On these kinds of blades, doing it freehand might actually be easier, as you can vary the angle continuously with your hands, where you can't exactly do that with the edge pro unless you do something like gently tilting the blade on the table with your support hand as you go through these areas.

Brian.
 
Bo-dacious said:
Me2: okay, so what do you guys do on the edge pro to fix this problem? I've found 3 options.
1. Change the angle of the tip
2. Change the angle of the rest of the blade
3. Change the angle of the stone to match the different angles on the knife.

I've found that changing the angle of the tip is quickest.
What do you guys find is the quicksst/best way?

Thanks,

Bo
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4. Keep sharpening the knife at the same angle and accept that the bevel will widen as you approach the tip.

Keep in mind the width of the bevel depends on the thickness of the knife at the spine, and the width from the spine to the edge. As you get closer to the tip, the bevel will widen if you keep the angle the same.

What I love about the edgepro is it keeps the angle exactly the same along the entire edge. You may or may not like this. I do. If you want the width of the bevel to be about the same, you will have to continually change the sharpening angle. Personally, I don't like that, I like my edge angle to be consistent.

YMMV.
 
Micro bevel the tip or just keep sharpening until you get a bur. The problem is the tip angle is probably 5 degrees more than the rest of the blade. If you keep sharpening you will have a broader edge at the tip than the rest of the blade. Thats why when you free hand sharpen you lift the knife slightly when you get towards the tip.
 
I think they have it covered better than I coould ever do - but I will add that 99.9% (if not 100) of the factory edges I've sharpened on a fixed angle system have this same issue. I can get the apex along the entirety of the knife except the last 1/4 inch +/- at the tip. it just takes more work, and you have to be careful out there that your arent running off the tip and roundign it as well. this is where a quality low grit stone is going to be your best friend.
 
Peter: thank You, that's what I wanted to know. I'm trying to get an idea of what a customer would expect.

Me2: okay that's what I think I'm going to do, lower the angle of the tip.

Bgentry: that's a great idea tilting the blade a bit on the table as I go. I'm going to try that. Thank you.

Jj_colt: and anyone else. Do you think that more expensive knives so have the higher angle at the tip? Do they sharpen it more carefully and not Have that?

Blues: I thought the angle would change when the stone is reaching out too and I still do, but I read on here and you tube multiple times that the stone stays at the same angle to the knife. is that wrong?

Sodak: if I sharpen the tip at the same angle as the rest of the blade then at the tip it only removes material from the shoulder. And I do t get a burr. So to keep your angle the same do you reprofile your blades at the tip to match or what do you do?

115italian: I would have to microbevel the rest of the blade not the tip because the tip is at a higher angle. Would that be considered "good work" to microbevel the edge but not the tip? It seeks like it would be considered crappy work. What do you guys think?

Do you guys think if I have to reprofile the tip I should charge my customers more? (I know it's too early, but I feel this is a good time to ask while we're talking bout reprofiling).

L1ranger: what do you do when you run into a higher angle tip?

Thanks a lot guys,

Bo
 
Depending on length of blade, if you leave the tip off the sharpening table and out to the side, the stone will not make contact with the edge and bevel perpendicularly. Try it on a butter knife or something that you can experiment with and see what happens to the edge and bevel.
 
Bo-dacious said:
Do you guys think if I have to reprofile the tip I should charge my customers more? (I know it's too early, but I feel this is a good time to ask while we're talking bout reprofiling).

L1ranger: what do you do when you run into a higher angle tip?
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if you are just doing a sharpening, assume you have to reprofile the blade at some point and price it accordingly. if you've got the right tools, it won't be that much of an issue

when I have a tip that needs extra work, it depends on the knife and my goals.
for my own smaller blades , say under 4 inches, I use the same angle throughout and grind away as needed
longer kitchen blades, I'll raise the angle and sharpen the tip if I'm short on time, or grind it out if I have the time.

for someone else's knife - grind it out to the same angle as the rest of the blade
 
Blues: I'm not sure what you mean by bevel perpendicularly. I know what the word means just now how you used it.

L1ranger: okay, but what about the other sharpener in town? I'll be more expensive than him. I kind of want to be cheaper as I am newer.

Do you guys think I should charge more for expensive knives because it requires a nicer bevel or let them pick say sharp, sharper and sharpest?

Thanks a lot guys,

Bo
 
I'm sorry Bo. I'm pretty much out of words. I recommend you start studying the videos and practice, practice, practice. You'll learn a lot more by watching and doing.

 
don't be cheaper - be better

better equipment and proper stones will allow such - but we're getting away from the knives and more into business classes at that point
 
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