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edge pro vs clamp style sharpener for even needle tip

Discussion in 'Maintenance, Tinkering & Embellishment' started by ribeyemediumrare, Oct 12, 2018.

  1. ribeyemediumrare

    ribeyemediumrare

    54
    Oct 5, 2018
    Hi I was wondering if anyone experienced with these type of systems could give their opinion and overview on which would be better at producing a perfectly even bevel all the way to the tip and create a fine needle tip. From my understanding the edge pro style sharpeners have an advantage with being able to constantly adjust the knife to stay even with the shelf and allowing you to keep the edge perpendicular to the stone so the angle stays the same along the whole blade. On something like the wicked edge or kme the blade stays in place so that the belly and tip part of the edge are closer to the origin of the base then the rest of the blade. Would this make the tip more obtuse? In practice does this actually affect edge consistency or are you able to clamp the knife in a way that this is not an issue?
     
  2. steff27

    steff27 Basic Member Basic Member

    108
    Feb 8, 2013
    I have some experience with an Edge Pro and a Wicked Edge. Got the Edge Pro first. One of the reasons for that was the angle issue.

    On the Wicked Edge, the angle will vary along the edge for a typical drop point blade. But that variance is so small that I don't see or notice it in any way and I can't discern any practical impact of it. On the Edge Pro I can theoretically reposition the blade to keep the angle consistent. It turned out that I lack the skills and practice to actually achieve that. In the end, I get tips pointier and better looking on the Wicked Edge.

    Sizewise I have sharpened everything from a Victorinox Classic (with the Tormek small knife attachment) up to 10" bladed kitchen knifes. I would choose the Wicked Edge everytime, especially due to getting better tips. But I also know that we have members on this forum who achieve amazing edges with an Edge Pro.
     
  3. Wowbagger

    Wowbagger

    Sep 20, 2015
    For the first time I have to agree; Wicked Edge for the win there.

    Off the Edge Pro my tips / points are very well formed for what I do (pointy and sharp) and I use the heck out of a knife that can pierce cut. Think Pattada and Para2. Examples of knives that did not do well for me this way would be the Manix or Ouroboros.

    That said the wider looking sharpening bevel that the Edge Pro forms is actually good for me. I don't pry and I don't put a lot of cutting force on the tips so I'm good with a shallower angle at the tip but it does look vastly different than a factory grind.

    PS: the small knife attachment should help some with this. I don't have one yet. I keep telling myself I am going to make one. The last vid I watched, just a few days ago, about the small knife attachment made me realize maybe it IS worth the $35 dollars they are asking for it. Seemed more than I wanted to spend when it just seemed to be a rectangle of plastic with a slot in it.
     
  4. cbwx34

    cbwx34 Basic Member Basic Member

    Dec 27, 2004
    I've used both... either one will do what you want... just need to take time to learn it. I actually like the EP for the fact you can see what you're doing a bit easier.

    BTW, the angle doesn't change along the straight portion of the blade... Angles on Clamp Style Devices.... so you can set the blade to achieve the result you want in the belly/tip area, (where the angle can change).
     
  5. ribeyemediumrare

    ribeyemediumrare

    54
    Oct 5, 2018
    Can you explain how the small knife attachment helps with this? So you're saying the bevel near the tip is wider using the edge pro? I thought it would be the opposite, and the wicked edge method would look less "factory" near the tip since the angle changes
     
  6. wvdavidr

    wvdavidr

    349
    Mar 21, 2007
    The small knife attachment helps by allowing you to sharpen the tip without moving the knife. Without it, you have to rotate the knife to keep the tip area over the end of the blade table (so the stones don't hit the table instead). I strongly recommend anybody to get the small knife attachment for the Edge Pro.
     
    Mo2 likes this.
  7. ribeyemediumrare

    ribeyemediumrare

    54
    Oct 5, 2018
    Wouldn't you want to rotate the knife as you get to the tip anyway so the angle stays the same and the bevel is even along the edge? If you're just holding the knife in one position the whole time, then why not just use a clamp style sharpening system?
     
  8. Night Rider

    Night Rider

    498
    Apr 16, 2018
    Yes like the KME Gen II Diamond Sharpener. It's rock solid and fool proof, trust me I know
     
  9. Wowbagger

    Wowbagger

    Sep 20, 2015
    Actually on this one I pretty much kept the stock / factory angle to see how it would look and just sharpened it further and refined it to 4,000 Shapton Glass and it looks pretty even.

    Where I get "in trouble" is putting "my edge" on it which tends toward ludicrously shallow for atom splitting. That's when the sharpening bevel starts to get much wider at the tip than it is in the straight section of the edge.

    This one looks good, CUTS GOOD !
    I was having a good time with it at work today (in spite of that factory geometry).
    IMG_5619.JPG
     
  10. Night Rider

    Night Rider

    498
    Apr 16, 2018
    someone on the board, can't remember who, sent me a link on youtube on how to keep the same bevel on the tip while using the KME system. I was having the same problem up till then. I use to turn blades into butter knives when I used wet stones. I'll try to dig up that link and attach it.
     
  11. ribeyemediumrare

    ribeyemediumrare

    54
    Oct 5, 2018
    At what angle do you notice this effect to be noticeable?
     
  12. Wowbagger

    Wowbagger

    Sep 20, 2015
    Well unlike my woodworking edges I don't have a great way to measure that. I just go with how it cuts and go shallower until it doesn't hold up then go a degree or two wider angle next time.
    HOW EVER don't give up on me.
    It just so happens I have this secret weapon that I haven't unveiled yet so now is as good a time as any. I bought these little blue angle wedge things to help me to gauge it. They start at 10° and go to 20° in one degree increments.

    I got out the Trans Ark for a stage and tilted the knife up until the little black line under the edge next to the stone disappeared and tried all the little wedges.
    Heck if I know. The white knife has my edge on it with the wide bevel near the tip and I seem to still be able to fit the 20° under it. That doesn't make sense. I must have been tilting it up too much. And these Trapper blades are hollow ground so . . . that's not helping any.

    Here let me start again : My feel for it judging by factory edges that are a know 20° from Spyderco I go about 15° and I think the edge on this thin Case Trapper blade is even shallower so I was going to say less than 15° but not shallower than say 12°.
    So around there the bevel starts to get wider near the tip.

    I'm thinking the bevel on the Blue Trapper is more than 20° . . . any body know what Case sharpens these at at the factory ?

    Looked at another way; on the Edge Pro I sharpened the Blue Trapper (the one that still looks even all along the edge) . . . looking at the colored rings on the vertical post on the Edge Pro . . . I had sharpened at a setting where the top of the black sliding rod guide block is midway between the Green line and the White line.

    When I put my shallower edge on it I am down at the Green line or a little below as I recall.
    Sorry I don't pay more attention to the actual angle.

    Even the blue wedges aren't really telling us the angle which would have to be measured from the center plane of the blade not from the angle between the blade main grind and the stone.
    I am sorry, sorry, sorry. :(
    IMG_5620.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
  13. Wowbagger

    Wowbagger

    Sep 20, 2015
    PS: if you read my reply and it was unintelligible I fixed a bunch of wrong words the auto spell put in . . . or what ever this evil thing is called.
     
  14. Wowbagger

    Wowbagger

    Sep 20, 2015
    OK . . . time to quit playing.
    I busssed out this angle gauge.
    The Blue Trapper with the stock / factory edge is about 35° inclusive so roughly 18° per side.

    The White Trapper with my edge is down around 25° inclusive so roughly 13° per side.

    My guess in above post was pretty close. ;)
    IMG_5621.jpg
     
    bucketstove likes this.
  15. Eli Chaps

    Eli Chaps

    252
    Apr 20, 2018
    Clamp your knife in the KME, centered from front to back, sharpen, be happy.
     
    Night Rider likes this.
  16. Wowbagger

    Wowbagger

    Sep 20, 2015
    Oh boy. Looks like I had a more mind numbing day yesterday than I had realized.
    Lets start again for those who care about the little colored bands on the Edge Pro :

    After fooling around with the angle gauge I knew I had effected the edges a little bit on the knives (the edge is still harder than the gauge but . . .).
    So I got out of bed with the idea to touch up the edges and take another look at the little bands. Something didn't sound right.

    I stared with the 220 Shapton Glass . . . just to be "sure" . . . and I am still getting this factory edge adapted to the Edge Pro . . . OK it is just the way I sharpen (as opposed to touch up) and the edge, I felt had a bit of stress from banging into the gauge. Didn't hurt to cut out some of that stressed steel with the 220.

    This is when I discovered it; I hadn't included the thickness of the stone when I looked at the Edge Pro last night to report the setting that didn't distort the bevel (the guide block was loose on the post and was sitting down on the stop collar.

    Oh well.
    I had a glass of orange juice for breakfast and started in. I'm off today and slept in (so this might be at least a little more accurate info wise).

    With the stone thickness added to the setting the top of the guide block is half way to the blue line. The blue line is the highest line / widest sharpening angle. This is for lumber jacks or stone masons or some such. All I know is it depresses me any time I get any where near it to sharpen a knife. Must have been why I had blotted it from my mind last night.

    The Blue Line ! The BLUE Line !? The BLUE LINE ! ! ! ! ? ? ?
    IMG_5624.jpg

    Hmmm surprised me when I was able to get this obtuse near lumber jack edge to hang on the skin of the apple. Probably wouldn't have if I had stropped it. Any body want to prove me wrong ? Free hand strop on leather now no cheating using wood in the Edge Pro.
    IMG_5622.jpg
    IMG_5623.jpg

    At any rate it was sharp enough to subdue this apple for . . . lunch. Where does the time go when one is having fun ? ! Note the precision surgery on the apple's core !
    Oh yah baby !:p
    IMG_5625.JPG

    I'm particularly ravenous so may as well pull out all the stops and add blue berry yogurt. No . . . that is NOT a chocolate chip cookie. I have no idea what that is or how it got there; I will have to investigate that when the time comes.
    IMG_5627.jpg

    No strops were disturbed in the performance of this feat of sharpening magic.
    Debured with just a few edge leading strokes; very lightly, very few. Final polish and edge refinement done by letting the 4,000 Shapton glass stone load up, bottom stone in this photo . . . I let it get all built up with black swarf in the stone then rinsed it off but didn't clean the pores. Acts a bit finer that way.
    Before that the weakish edge was tree topping. After deburing on the stone as described it fell back to only hair whittling. :(
    But hey . . . what do you want . . . it's a silly wide angle factory angled edge.
    Cuts apples though ;) :)

    PS: notice how nice and clean the natural nagura stone got that black pore clogged 4,000 !
    (I didn't use it on the others that still show some swarf in the pores.)
    IMG_5626.JPG
     
  17. ribeyemediumrare

    ribeyemediumrare

    54
    Oct 5, 2018
    I would assume that 13 degrees per side is a bit small for that type of knife but who knows. What is your shapton glass progression brw and how do you like the 4000 stone?
     
  18. Wowbagger

    Wowbagger

    Sep 20, 2015
    Last I heard from a KME user the blade is able to bend down and the set up flexes up and down. Edge Pro supports the blade right at the edge.
    Did some thing change ?
     
  19. Eli Chaps

    Eli Chaps

    252
    Apr 20, 2018
    I've sharpened a lot of different knives in the KME and I think I've only had one that flexed. It was a recent one that I did for my son in law. A very thin and flexible boning (more filet) knife. I had to scootch it down the spine a bit but nothing too extreme. The system itself doesn't flex.

    I've seen people clamping their knives in all manner of odd positions and I just do not think it's necessary for the majority of blades. I don't think the tip deal is really an issue. I've never used an Edge Pro but I would guess the same is true there. They are good, reputable, popular systems and sometimes I think people get worried about things they read or hear but there's not really anything to worry about. Hope that makes sense.

    Whether it's EP, KME, WE, etc. I think it is largely personal preference and the good quality systems will serve folks well. That's all I was really trying to get at.
     
  20. Night Rider

    Night Rider

    498
    Apr 16, 2018
    The only problem with flexing on my KME was when I was sharpening a long thin kitchen knife. Other than that the Jaws hold the blades very snug. After you get a bur you rotate the clamp and remove it with the same number of strokes then switch to your finishing stones. you don't have to put too much pressure on the blade even while achieving the bur. Maybe some people are applying too much pressure at the start.
     

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