Edge retention testing compared - analysis

Cobalt said:
very cool point to point graph but not very helpful. See how much error there is from cut to cut, thus, to remove the error and get the mean for the system take an average and extrapolate an actual smooth curve out of it like I did by hand and how I use to do in my engineering days? That will give you the true direction of the curve. The graph shown is an exact representation of the written data, it helps nothing since there is no average or mean curve represented.
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I'm not sure what you mean by "errors" in the data. I just see noisy data with precision only to the tens place. As far as smoothing the data goes, I agree that you can filter the data, but filtering only smooths the data. It doesn't allow you to extrapolate. The way I usually do this is to do some sort of curve fit. This usually requires me to have a of model of the trend I'm matching. Since my background is in Electrical Engineering, I'm not familiar with a good model to match this data to. So I decided to try a least-squares fit using a 3rd order, 5th order and logarithmic model.

The 420HC data was interesting since it seemed to show the greatest coverage from "sharp" to "dull"
420hc.png


The only insight I gain from this plot is that my models don't match the data, and that it's a non-trivial task to determine a reasonable model. If you have a better model, I'd be interested in running it against the data. However, drawing in a trend by hand is too subjective in my opinion. It allows people to make the data fit any trend they wish it to fit. Lets look at the rest of the data sets.

infi.png

ffd2.png

ats.png

lau.png
 
Way to state it Jerry! :D


Tyrkon Lawson said:
Well said Boss HOG!

Oooops! Did I just drink more kool-aid? ;)

The "Live Test" thing is the clincher for me. I can be a real Doubting Thomas at times. Not to be difficult but simply because I have this drive to know for sure.

INFI has not let me down yet. :D
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koolaidmanou9.jpg


I like cherry cool aid! :D
 
Jerry Busse said:
Okay. . . Here's what I've got so far. . . We, at Busse Combat, cut over 2,700 pieces of 1" hemp rope at the 1999 BLADE Show with a 2" wide section of the 1/4” thick blade and over 3,100 pieces at a show in Nashville and then bent that same knife over 70 degrees without breaking . . . We ran out of rope both times. . . The knives still easily shaved paper after all of these cuts.
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This is why I currently own 3 Busse's of my own.:D

Jerry Busse said:
We have invited the entire industry to duplicate our tests. . . None have, because none can. . . I repeat . . . “None have, because none can!” . . . Period!
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From what I understand, this is the test that nozh is currently repeating. He's cutting rope (manilla) and trying to quantify the results by measuring the force required to cut #10 thread. Is this a good measure of cutting performance? I'm not sure. My comments only pertain to the interpretation of the results. My opinion is that extrapolating the data great distances from the measured data is not meaningful since the non-linearity of the dulling doesn't appear to follow simple trends.

Jerry Busse said:
We are more interested in proven performance than theories.
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My point exactly!:thumbup: I look forward to further cutting results.

Jerry Busse said:
[ 7 ] Just because one or two guys don't like our knives or don't see the performance advantage of our steel doen't really change the facts which have been proven in so many "LIVE" tests. :)
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I hope I haven't given the impression that I'm not a Busse fan:eek:
But when I go and tell my friends why I like Busse knives so much, I feel it's important that my arguments have a firm foundation. It doesn't do the community any good to quickly deride a guy (nozh) for testing results that go against out firmly held beliefs. From the live testing, Jerry's already proven that INFI can hold an edge for a very long time. Nozh's testing appears to be confirming that fact. FFD2 also appears to be doing well, but he's only at 800 cuts. Give him some more time. In the early stages of his testing he drew some conclusions that he later found were wrong, (specifically with regards to 420HC). This was because he used early trends of a non-linear system to predict long term performance. Luckily, he took everyones advice to keep testing, and he soon found that 420HC didn't hold up. I have to give the guy credit.
 
ThunderUnderKilt said:
This is why I currently own 3 Busse's of my own.:D



From what I understand, this is the test that nozh is currently repeating. He's cutting rope (manilla) and trying to quantify the results by measuring the force required to cut #10 thread. Is this a good measure of cutting performance? I'm not sure. My comments only pertain to the interpretation of the results. My opinion is that extrapolating the data great distances from the measured data is not meaningful since the non-linearity of the dulling doesn't appear to follow simple trends.



My point exactly!:thumbup: I look forward to further cutting results.



I hope I haven't given the impression that I'm not a Busse fan:eek:
But when I go and tell my friends why I like Busse knives so much, I feel it's important that my arguments have a firm foundation. It doesn't do the community any good to quickly deride a guy (nozh) for testing results that go against out firmly held beliefs. From the live testing, Jerry's already proven that INFI can hold an edge for a very long time. Nozh's testing appears to be confirming that fact. FFD2 also appears to be doing well, but he's only at 800 cuts. Give him some more time. In the early stages of his testing he drew some conclusions that he later found were wrong, (specifically with regards to 420HC). This was because he used early trends of a non-linear system to predict long term performance. Luckily, he took everyones advice to keep testing, and he soon found that 420HC didn't hold up. I have to give the guy credit.
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The biggest problem with his testing is that he is not comparing like edge profiles. As the thicker edge wears it will get thicker and eventually blunt faster. It is too bad he did not exactly profile the edges and give them exactly the same or as close as possible sharpness. If a certain did not take as good a sharpness as another then he could have reduced the sharpness of osme to give them all the same starting point. This at least would have been a more meaningful test.

Also, your graphs show the same starting point which is not the case. Look at the 3-6 cut, all burr would have been removed and the real sharpness would be in play, look at the difference, pretty high. INFI definitely behaves wierd. It looses sharpness then gets it back. I can't explain it, but even with it's thicker edge it wears down the competition.


Jerry Busse said:
Okay. . . Here's what I've got so far. . . We, at Busse Combat, cut over 2,700 pieces of 1" hemp rope at the 1999 BLADE Show with a 2" wide section of the 1/4” thick blade and over 3,100 pieces at a show in Nashville and then bent that same knife over 70 degrees without breaking . . . We ran out of rope both times. . . The knives still easily shaved paper after all of these cuts. . . We have invited the entire industry to duplicate our tests. . . None have, because none can. . . I repeat . . . “None have, because none can!” . . . Period! . . . It's really rather simple. . . Don't believe me? Call any other manufacturer out there and ask them to duplicate our tests in a "LIVE" demo at this year's BLADE Show with a knife of similar dimensions. . . Then come on back and hang out with the guys who have actually done it and not theorized about it. . . Theories are cool. . . but then so is the Tooth Fairy. . . We are more interested in proven performance than theories. . .

Here are more random thoughts:

[ 1 ] There are far too many factors in sharpening a knife to ever get equal sharpness amongst different steels. . . ie; feathers break off easily on D-2 and 420HC giving the impression that they take a better edge. . . Feathers are very difficult to break off on INFI because they carry the same toughness as the rest of the blade. Thus an INFI blade may not feel as sharp initially and will actually get sharper as you continue to cut because you are wearing the feather down . . . blah. . blah. . .blah. . .

[ 2 ] I get tired of feeling like we are supposed to apologize for INFI kickin' the crap out of every other steel out there. . . . . Here I am kids, more than 8 years after our first "LIVE" demonstration, waiting for ANY other manufacturer to simply shut up, step up, and duplicate our tests. . . If you can beat our numbers I'll be glad to bring more rope and raise the bar so high that your nose will bleed just looking up at it. . .

[ 3 ] Listening to someone theorize about a knife steel's performance based upon the analysis of the steel, is as ridiculous as a food critic writing a review about a cake that he has never tasted, based on the ingredients!!! I don't care what you put in that cake, if you don't know how to bake it, it's gonna be pretty darned bad! :D

[ 4 ] Is this a blog?. . If so, am I blogging?. . . What does that mean????

[ 5 ] Merry Ho Ho. . . :cool:

[ 6 ] God Bless Our Troops who put it on the line every day. . . :thumbup:

[ 7 ] Just because one or two guys don't like our knives or don't see the performance advantage of our steel doen't really change the facts which have been proven in so many "LIVE" tests. :)

[ 8 ] I need more scotch. . :thumbup:

[ 9 ] There are lots of great knives out there. . . But if I thought for one second that there was something better than what we are making . . . I would change what we are doing in a heart beat!!!!

Let's Drink!!!

Jerry :D
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NUFF SAID I GUESS:D
 
Wow, I think it is so Cool that I have the power to lock threads now. I am locking it down because I want to have the last word and see if it really works. This brings up my next topic:

SKUNK and COBALT for MODS
 
Cobalt said:
Wow, I think it is so Cool that I have the power to lock threads now. I am locking it down because I want to have the last word and see if it really works.
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I'm not quite sure how you locked this thread, but I just re-opened it. . . .How did you do that? :confused:

Jerry
 
Jerry Busse said:
I'm not quite sure how you locked this thread, but I just re-opened it. . . .How did you do that? :confused:

Jerry
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with superior know how??

Boss said:
[ 2 ] I get tired of feeling like we are supposed to apologize for INFI kickin' the crap out of every other steel out there. . . . . Here I am kids, more than 8 years after our first "LIVE" demonstration, waiting for ANY other manufacturer to simply shut up, step up, and duplicate our tests. . . If you can beat our numbers I'll be glad to bring more rope and raise the bar so high that your nose will bleed just looking up at it. . .
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I think any kind of test that can be done was ALREADY done here!!!
 
GOOD ON YOU JERRY!

Cobalt, after starting a good thread, you sucked to lock it:thumbdn::barf: and would obviously make a rotten moderator.:D

The only problem with this kind of thread is people getting too excited, impatient, and even rude.;)

HOG's are well known as volatile creatures so it's no surprise that it happens here. Sometimes these threads take a long time to play out, and sometimes it's even worth it.

Thanks,
DH

PS - I'll be away for a few days but look forward to more on this topic.
 
Doberman_Dave said:
GOOD ON YOU JERRY!

Cobalt, after starting a good thread, you sucked to lock it:thumbdn::barf: and would obviously make a rotten moderator.:D

The only problem with this kind of thread is people getting too excited, impatient, and even rude.;)

HOG's are well known as volatile creatures so it's no surprise that it happens here. Sometimes these threads take a long time to play out, and sometimes it's even worth it.

Thanks,
DH

PS - I'll be away for a few days but look forward to more on this topic.
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alright that is it, locked,
 
Jerry is either way to drunk or he and I unlocked this mother at the same time. :) Now where's my SHBM Blue Boy? :D
 
Hey Jerry,

Were the 2700 cuts at Blade 1999 and the 3100 cuts at Nashville both done with the Basic No.9 which is made from M-INFI (Not as superior as INFI)?
 
“None have, because none can!”

Jerry, That statement is beautiful. Nothing else needs to be said. These little tests against other knives and steels may be fun and an interesting read for some, but, until another maker steps up to the plate and does the live test and makes knives that fit my hand as well and gives me a forum with all of you guys in it and duplicates the Busse warranty and the owner of the Company actually listens to its customers and participates in the forums and hangs out with his customers at Blade and duplicates Busse customer service and that companies knives hold their value as well as Busse and is the parent company to two smaller companies who also make knives with the same warranty for a lower price point and take the beatings that Tyrkon doles out in his back yard :D.

If you know of such a knife company, I am all ears, until then test away. I will keep on buying Busse.

Chuck.
 
hlee said:
OP, hlee is currently a postdoctoral associate in biochemistry, specifically transient state enzymology.
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Congratulations! Sounds like a fascinating field. Clearly, experimental technique and data analysis are going to be very important to you.

It's good to hear from you. :)

Plus...the appearance of the new, Platinum Cobalt has me pretty spooked. How about the rest of you Piglets??
 
why don't you just get a Battle Mistress and cut whichever knife he is obviously hard over in half? that'd be pretty final. :D
 
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