Edges on journeyman, Mastersmiths or Bladesport test/competition knives???

L

leozinho

Joined
Jan 7, 2005
Messages
143
Hi,

I hope this hasn't been asked before. I searched, and while I'm sure the information is likely somewhere on this site, I couldn't find it.

What final edge is used for (most, all, some) of the ABS journeyman and mastersmith test knives, or on the knives used by bladesport competitors?

I ask because you will find much debate in the sharpening subforums of all the knife forums. Some like to freehand on waterstones, some like a convex edge from a 1x30 grinder, some swear that a mechanical device like the Edge Pro or Wicked Edge produces the best edge, and some like to strop on leather.

There's also endless debate about toothy edges vs hair popping sharpness, the perfect final angle for various steels and various intended uses, and how long an edge will last.

However, I'm inclined to believe that would-be journeyman/mastersmiths and competitors have probably done extensive testing and, I suspect, come up with a consensus of what is the ideal edge for their purposes.

If so, what would that consensus be?

Many thanks.
 
I am not an expert by any means, but I will tell you what I know. It varies quite a bit with the ABS guys, but most of the edges I have seen are fairly polished. I have seen and handled many knives from ABS Journeyman and Master Smiths as well as spending some time in Jim Crowell's shop. Most al of them are highly polished, and really sharp.

I recently joined the Bladesport group and am very much a rookie, but know some of the best guys doing it. They use a very highly polished incredibly sharp edge. I did not think knives that big got that sharp, but they do. They usually sharpen on a grinder going way up into the micron belts and then to some really really fine diamonds and then strop with some really, really fine spray or past like .5 micron.

I also make knives and for me it depends on what I want the knife to do. I am also a beginner at knifemaking (about 25 knives). That what I know. Hope that helps.
 
I've got a notebook of notes from quite a few JS & MS people I've talked to about edge geometry. It varies a lot. From .015 to .007. Main thing is go as thin as you can and test it on whatever you need it to do.
 
Shaw Blades said:
I've got a notebook of notes from quite a few JS & MS people I've talked to about edge geometry. It varies a lot. From .015 to .007. Main thing is go as thin as you can and test it on whatever you need it to do.
Click to expand...

So even with the varying grind thickness. What would they do to sharpen it from that thickness? Or I should say what did they take the edge polish to? It has to shave hair right?
 
But journeyman test is not edge-demanding.
Rope, 2x4 times two, and shaving arm...
Nothing special.
 
Seems to be some preference among ABS for convex/Moran/appleseed edge geometry. How thick the edge is above the appleseed grind is variable. Not sure how fine they polish the edges. I did just watch a video on the ABS site about sharpening using a Norton Fine India stone. Couldn't find what grit that is, but seems to be 400-600 based on comparisons with other stones.
 
I guess I am just curious about what makes something hair popping sharp? You have to have your knife that sharp before you test and then it still has to be that sharp when you are done. So all the other stuff aside, what makes it that sharp?

Sorry Let me be more clear. I am assuming that taking your knife down to .01" thick and then sharpening with a course stone so that it has a burn will not be sharp enough?
 
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TheWeatherman said:
I guess I am just curious about what makes something hair popping sharp?
Click to expand...

Almost any relatively acute edge that meets at a crisp apex, with grooves less than the thickness of a hair will more-or-less shave arm hair. It's not that big of a deal, really.

The smaller those grooves (more polished), and the more acute the edge, the better it will shave - that's when you get into edges that people call "tree-topping sharp" , or so sharp that they barely require any effort to cut hair off your arm without irritating the skin.

TheWeatherman said:
I am assuming that taking your knife down to .01" thick and then sharpening with a course stone so that it has a burn will not be sharp enough?
Click to expand...

Probably not. Certainly not sharp enough for a comp cutter; most of those guys grind their edges very thin and polish them highly. But it's possible to perform the ABS test with a knife like that; it will depend a lot on the overall geometry of the blade and to a lesser extent the strength and skill of the person doing the cutting.

idaho said:
But journeyman test is not edge-demanding. Rope, 2x4 times two, and shaving arm... Nothing special.
Click to expand...

That's true; it's really not that difficult, if the geometry is appropriate and the HT is excellent. Barring the hanging-rope test, I've done it with 4-5" blades made of various steels, which is far more impressive in terms of edge retention, simply because it takes a heckuva lot longer (many more cuts/chops) to cut through a 2x4 twice with such a small blade than it does with a 9-10" chopper or bowie.

I don't say any of this to "sneer" at the ABS cutting tests, by any means; without question, any knife that can do that has a lot going for it. Cutting comps are essentially an outgrowth of those tests, that get progressively more difficult, require even more skill, and include much finer tasks.
 
Full height flat grinds with convex edges are very common among ABS style knives, I'd say *most* are this way. Many of us feel this is the best of both worlds. I'm one of them.


I'm a bit surprised by M Forge's statement about polished edges by Jim Crowell however, true, he hand rubs most of his blades, but I've not witnessed or heard Jim give any indication of preference for a high grit finish on the final edge. Jim is a friend, and I've handled many of his knives, and while they're certainly very sharp, he's not taking them to 30k on some crazy waterstone, or buffing, or stropping them out afaik. They're not mirror, and I don't believe he's got a complex sharpening system. Most of us, that I'm close with in the ABS, tend to favor what we'd call a "toothy" or "thirsty edge". Which is reasonably low grit, but properly sharpened.

Me, I finish grind to near nothing, roll my edge on an extra course DMT stone (takes about 3 strokes at one angle, 3 strokes at another if I ground the blade right), blend it in with 400 grit, then 600 grit soft backed paper, then a few light swipes on an old hone I suspect is a Coticule. Then after I hand sand, I can just touch it up with the stone. Of course, I can put a hair shaving edge on with the extra course DMT, and that's the essential part.

I bought a couple of highly regarded water stones.. Had very little luck with them personally, way too soft for my methods.
 
javand said:
Me, I finish grind to near nothing, roll my edge on an extra course DMT stone, blend it in with 400 grit, then 600 grit soft backed paper, then a few light swipes on an old hone I suspect is a Coticule. Then after I hand sand, I can just touch it up with the stone. Of course, I can put a hair shaving edge on with the extra course DMT, and that's the essential part.
Click to expand...

What is your grit on the touch up stone?
 
james terrio said:
Almost any relatively acute edge that meets at a crisp apex, with grooves less than the thickness of a hair will more-or-less shave arm hair. It's not that big of a deal, really.

The smaller those grooves (more polished), and the more acute the edge, the better it will shave - that's when you get into edges that people call "tree-topping sharp" , or so sharp that they barely require any effort to cut hair off your arm without irritating the skin.



Probably not. Certainly not sharp enough for a comp cutter; most of those guys grind their edges very thin and polish them highly. But it's possible to perform the ABS test with a knife like that; it will depend a lot on the overall geometry of the blade and to a lesser extent the strength and skill of the person doing the cutting.



That's true; it's really not that difficult, if the geometry is appropriate and the HT is excellent. Barring the hanging-rope test, I've done it with 4-5" blades made of various steels, which is far more impressive in terms of edge retention, simply because it takes a heckuva lot longer (many more cuts/chops) to cut through a 2x4 twice with such a small blade than it does with a 9-10" chopper or bowie.

I don't say any of this to "sneer" at the ABS cutting tests, by any means; without question, any knife that can do that has a lot going for it. Cutting comps are essentially an outgrowth of those tests, that get progressively more difficult, require even more skill, and include much finer tasks.
Click to expand...

Not to split hairs (zing!), but "tree-topping" generally refers to a level of sharpness required to cut hairs, not at the skin level, but above it.

That type of edge falls in with knife edges that can, at the highest level of sharpness, cut a hanging hair. The hanging hair test (or hht) edge is pretty much accepted as being a novelty that is done just to prove you can. I haven't quite gotten there, but close. Of course the hht is useful for those that maintain straight razors.
 
TheWeatherman said:
What is your grit on the touch up stone?
Click to expand...

Hard to say, because it's either a Belgian Coticule or an old ultra hard brown Arkansas (it's an antique, I lucked into), it's high definitely over 5k, but if I over-use it, the blade will give a phenomenal shave, but wont have enough bite to cut the way I expect it to.

Push cutting paper thin slices of veggies with an ultra refined edge on a super high hardness japanese kitchen knife, it's a very different task from slicing meat, or chopping rope.


Edit to add: Mostly I'm using it to knock off the wire edge and lightly refine, that's it. A few swipes on an already sharp blade. A dull blade goes back to paper or a course stone.
 
javand said:
Full height flat grinds with convex edges are very common among ABS style knives, I'd say *most* are this way. Many of us feel this is the best of both worlds. I'm one of them.


I'm a bit surprised by M Forge's statement about polished edges by Jim Crowell however, true, he hand rubs most of his blades, but I've not witnessed or heard Jim give any indication of preference for a high grit finish on the final edge. Jim is a friend, and I've handled many of his knives, and while they're certainly very sharp, he's not taking them to 30k on some crazy waterstone, or buffing, or stropping them out afaik. They're not mirror, and I don't believe he's got a complex sharpening system. Most of us, that I'm close with in the ABS, tend to favor what we'd call a "toothy" or "thirsty edge". Which is reasonably low grit, but properly sharpened.

Me, I finish grind to near nothing, roll my edge on an extra course DMT stone (takes about 3 strokes at one angle, 3 strokes at another if I ground the blade right), blend it in with 400 grit, then 600 grit soft backed paper, then a few light swipes on an old hone I suspect is a Coticule. Then after I hand sand, I can just touch it up with the stone. Of course, I can put a hair shaving edge on with the extra course DMT, and that's the essential part.

I bought a couple of highly regarded water stones.. Had very little luck with them personally, way too soft for my methods.
Click to expand...

By highly polished I'm sure he meant buffing the edge. I've seen Jim do this personally. I have some videos floating around of him showing me how to sharpen.
 
james terrio said:
Almost any relatively acute edge that meets at a crisp apex, with grooves less than the thickness of a hair will more-or-less shave arm hair. It's not that big of a deal, really.

The smaller those grooves (more polished), and the more acute the edge, the better it will shave - that's when you get into edges that people call "tree-topping sharp" , or so sharp that they barely require any effort to cut hair off your arm without irritating the skin.



Probably not. Certainly not sharp enough for a comp cutter; most of those guys grind their edges very thin and polish them highly. But it's possible to perform the ABS test with a knife like that; it will depend a lot on the overall geometry of the blade and to a lesser extent the strength and skill of the person doing the cutting.



That's true; it's really not that difficult, if the geometry is appropriate and the HT is excellent. Barring the hanging-rope test, I've done it with 4-5" blades made of various steels, which is far more impressive in terms of edge retention, simply because it takes a heckuva lot longer (many more cuts/chops) to cut through a 2x4 twice with such a small blade than it does with a 9-10" chopper or bowie.

I don't say any of this to "sneer" at the ABS cutting tests, by any means; without question, any knife that can do that has a lot going for it. Cutting comps are essentially an outgrowth of those tests, that get progressively more difficult, require even more skill, and include much finer tasks.
Click to expand...

Then the knife used still has to pop hairs and is bent to 90º without cracking more than a 1/4" into the blade. And you can't send it out to HT... lol.

Not trying to get into that whole debate here, and I'm an ABS member, so I lamd in that camp, but it isn't exactly easy...
 
Yeah, I include the shaving part afterwards, that's the whole point. Any good handmade knife should be able to do the chopping/shaving part.

Almost any knife can be bashed through a 2x4... eventually. But few production knives will shave and slice cleanly afterwards.

I don't do bending tests in that manner or for their purposes, and I do send my blades out for HT.
 
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