Edges on journeyman, Mastersmiths or Bladesport test/competition knives???

[Overmountain]

Again, not trying to start an argument... but I am in the chase for JS... And I can grind and HT you a blade that will shave, blow through a 2x4 and the sisal rope all day long. But the bend test as well??? Well, that's a sticker for me... I can seemingly do one or the other but not both.

You are absolutely correct. Most production knives fail at any of the tests... and any good custom maker should be able to sharpen a knife and leave enough meat to do all the cutting duties. It is as simple as following several tried and true formulas. Doing the HT yourself and passing the bend test after its through isn't all that easy.

To top it, my mentor said it like this, 'I could take you step by step and tell you how to do it all and you'd pass right now. But then you wouldn't learn it for yourself. And that is part of the process...' Figuring it out has been fun. Honestly.

-Eric

 

[Brian Avila]

And I can grind and HT you a blade that will shave, blow through a 2x4 and the sisal rope all day long.

So what do you think the edge needs to be so you can shave hair and pass the parts of the test that don't need to be bending?

 

[Overmountain]

Here is what I have settled on so far... keep in mind I haven't passed yet. My blades that are bendy won't hold this edge, and my blades that will hold it crack too deep to pass. So I think I am about to chase it down...

I go .010-.015 primary edge on a flat ground blade with a Moran (convex) edge and have been using 5160 with a differential HT, but since we are talking about no bend test, the edge is simply a standard oil quench and temper at 400º. Dead slick into the retarded grit level, 3000 or so with paper on a soft backer then rouges on a strop... Seems to be plenty resilient, plenty sharp, and doesn't chip out. I have been using primarily 5160 as a lot have passed with it and its cheap.

If any current JS or MS see something I should adjust PM me please. I hate to ask how to's at all on the ABS forum. Its feels like ordering french fries at a four star restaurant.

This is one of those 'it depends' questions I'm afraid as there are several correct ways to do this (chopping stuff)... Each person may apporach it a little differently.

And ultimately I am sure you are aware that generally a knife is sharpened in a manner dictated by their intended final use. So that is a HUGE 'it depends...)

 

[firebolt]

in my humle opinion the JS test knife is a test to see if you can master heat treatment, in this case differential hardening,
chopping wood and rope cutting and still be able to shave is the easy part, i have seen low 50 HRC knifes done this
i would suggest a clay layer to leave the spine softer

 

[james terrio]

in my humle opinion the JS test knife is a test to see if you can master heat treatment, in this case differential hardening...

That's not just an opinion, that's exactly how the ABS describes it.

4. BENDING: THE PURPOSE OF THIS TEST IS TO SHOW THAT THE APPLICANT IS ABLE TO HEAT
TREAT A KNIFE WITH A SOFT BACK AND A HARD EDGE.

As a side note, Bob Kramer performed the cutting and bending tests on national TV with a very thin, light kitchen knife (skip to about 2:00 in the video below). Nowhere in the rules does it say a test knife has to be a thick chopper or bowie... and in fact using a much thinner knife presents certain advantages...

[video=youtube;-OCoS81G2CY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OCoS81G2CY[/video]

Again, not trying to start an argument... but I am in the chase for JS... And I can grind and HT you a blade that will shave, blow through a 2x4 and the sisal rope all day long. But the bend test as well??? Well, that's a sticker for me... I can seemingly do one or the other but not both.

You may want to reconsider how thick you're making your blades. Now, some MS's may consider testing with a thinner knife cheating, because clearly it can be done with a much thicker blade. I imagine that's at their discretion - so it may depend on whom you test with.

ETA: I notice Nick Wheeler's test knife is also fairly thin... I'll hazard a guess he made it that way on purpose.

 

[quint]

That is interesting his grinding arrangement.

 

[FullyTorque]

Lucy if you really want to be amazed, check out Nick Wheeler's JS test knife
I've only seen videos and pics of ABS test knives online but they've all been so soft on the spine that they don't really spring back and end up bent beyond use. Wheeler's knife is looks pretty straight (maybe even fixable) and could continue to be used after being bent to 90deg!

 

[Willie71]

Here is what I have settled on so far... keep in mind I haven't passed yet. My blades that are bendy won't hold this edge, and my blades that will hold it crack too deep to pass. So I think I am about to chase it down...

I go .010-.015 primary edge on a flat ground blade with a Moran (convex) edge and have been using 5160 with a differential HT, but since we are talking about no bend test, the edge is simply a standard oil quench and temper at 400º. Dead slick into the retarded grit level, 3000 or so with paper on a soft backer then rouges on a strop... Seems to be plenty resilient, plenty sharp, and doesn't chip out. I have been using primarily 5160 as a lot have passed with it and its cheap.

If any current JS or MS see something I should adjust PM me please. I hate to ask how to's at all on the ABS forum. Its feels like ordering french fries at a four star restaurant.

This is one of those 'it depends' questions I'm afraid as there are several correct ways to do this (chopping stuff)... Each person may apporach it a little differently.

And ultimately I am sure you are aware that generally a knife is sharpened in a manner dictated by their intended final use. So that is a HUGE 'it depends...)

I joined the ABS this year, and have been thinking about this too. I think the "trick" here is to optimize the configuration for the steel you are using. I am thinking I will work with either 9260, 15n20, or 80CRV2, or possibly 5160 (5160 is my last choice as I don't see myself using it much outside of large choppers, and investing the time to optimize it seems a bit of a waste) which have good flex and edge holding characteristics. I think polishing the edge too fine opens you up for visible damage to the edge when inspected after chopping, and if you go too course, you compromise the shaving part. I have to do some testing to see if edge quenching, clay hardening, or drawing back the spine gives the best results.

 

[Shaw Blades]

Can you show us the videos?

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ing-a-convex-edge-on-a-knife-with-Jim-Crowell


Also I grabbed my notebook today. The consensus seems to be leave it as hard as possible and as thin as possible for a stellar edge.

JS 1: Folders .005-.007
Fixed Blade .007-.010
Choppers .010-.015

JS 2: Camp knife/chopper .007-.008 (convexed)
Hunting knife 0 edge (convexed)

JS 3: Utility/Hunting knife .020-.025 (convexed)

MS 1: Utility/Hunting knife .015-.020

MS 2: Utility/Hunting knife 0 edge- .005 (convex)


Also I'm just going to throw this out there. In my experience these guys are very approachable. I have bought knives from them and studied every centimeter. Save up, buy a knife from someone who's work you admire. If you haven't already made about 15 knives, make 15 then call this person and ask them some questions. The point of the ABS is education and sharing knowledge (as far as I can tell anyway).

There are also a ton of people who make great knives that aren't in the ABS.

Also I would take a lot of suggestions found on the forums (all knife forums) with a grain of salt.

 

[javand]

In my experience these guys are very approachable.

Absolutely right. Jimmy Crowell is one of the nicest guys you could meet, as an example, since he's heavily mentioned here. Best investment you could make though is join the ABS, and take one of the two week Intro to Bladesmithing courses. Or if you feel you're beyond that, attend one of the other classes. In either case, you'll meet a Mastersmith that's more than willing to answer every question you could possibly have.

In the intro courses here at Haywood, they typically always make a knife from start to finish that will pass the JS performance test. Plenty of discussion takes place regarding the caveats of the "test knife" versus what you may want out of a customer knife.

The cut & bend test has never been intended to be the litmus for knife performance. It's is only intended to prove that you can make a knife to pass one particular set of variables, not to implicate that all knives should be designed to perform that set of tasks.

 

[Brian Avila]

The cut & bend test has never been intended to be the litmus for knife performance. It's is only intended to prove that you can make a knife to pass one particular set of variables, not to implicate that all knives should be designed to perform that set of tasks.

Absolutely! This topic has interested me since I have learned about the ABS. I have asked many JS and they say the same thing that you have just said.

 

[Overmountain]

James, I had already figured out the thin thing. That honestly didn't take much observation. Most of the blades I am practicing this with are 1/8" +/-. I haven't seen any test knives that were big fat behemoths. And yes, I understand that it is a test of meeting a very specific set of variables, and is honestly quite a bit outside what I aim for with anything I sell. Most test knives are so soft in the spine battoning through a piece of kindling would leave them rolled over and crumpled like mad. And yes, I have seen a couple of blades that passed and may have been considered 'useable in an emergency' but the vast majority were 'omg what did you do to that poor thing' bent.

I am on an extremely tight budget (due to too many hobbies draining the accounts over the years long before they eked out a profit... her highness has decreed this must be self sustaining) so I HT with a gas forge. Granted I have a lot of control with the forge, I would still love to have an oven.
Soft back draw was told to me more than once, but lately I have been instead going with just heating the edge to critical, watching color and an edge quench after watching more than one person HT with a torch and pass an example test. One of whom isn't a forum or ABS member based on some b.s. principle he has but would be an asset both places. I have done better with this than with trying a 'soft back draw' at any attempt.

Most people who know me know how hectic my work life is. Travel is almost out of the question. I hardly get to take the vacation I am afforded, and as lately as last week that has proven to step in on plans to visit a MS for some education. That said, you are all very very correct. The ABS is full of people that are approachable and rather free with their knowledge. I have honestly left at least one shop with free schwag. The videos the ABS has up are also awesome. Some of them featuring guys who are no longer with us. Its a shame these videos aren't seen first by all of those who seem to follow the 'heat it up on the grill and quench it in cooking lard' crowd. I have learned a lot from those videos and from hanging around in that forum. But I would say I feel much more comfortable here. And honestly due to the wealth of backgrounds and high traffic here I think I get a well rounded answer faster here.

I plan on going to the two week class even though it may be back to some basics to a degree. I'm man enough to admit I have discovered more than once I had been doing something wrong in this hobby. Well, maybe not wrong per se, but out of order or inefficiently. I'm already aware from joining this forum my introductory education in bladesmithing was terribly myopic. None of it has proven to be way off course... there are just better ways of skinning that cat sometimes.

And I want to add since it has been mentioned, a lot of the ABS guys are open and sharing to non-ABS members too. Not just dues paying members. So if you feel like membership just isn't for you yet, still approach. Cant hurt... But you do get an awesome card for your wallet... lol. And just because you can test at three years doesn't mean you have to. I know I'm still a ways off..

So far ABS dues and membership fees here are the best ROI expenditures I've had in my shop this year.

 

[Overmountain]

The 'thin' thing brings up a point that I know is straying even further off the OP's original question... but since there is at least one post up about it at the moment...

View one of the JS test videos. Watching the effort it takes to bend the test knife should give an indication of just how strong steel is. Aaron's recent video to test the corbies was also pretty impressive to watch just from the steel strength perspective...

 

[james terrio]

And I want to add since it has been mentioned, a lot of the ABS guys are open and sharing to non-ABS members too.

They certainly are. I've interacted with several and met a few... they were extremely helpful :thumbup:

ETA the same goes for Knifemaker's Guild members, too, come to think of it.