Educate me on the Scandi grind

[me2]

Many scandi ground knives are just very short machetes, with thinner edges for slicing and carving instead of the more robust edges seen on machetes for chopping. Try a full flat ground blade with a 10 degree bevel on it and then compare it to a scandi ground blade. For deep cutting, such as in potatos and carrots, I'd bet the flat ground blade will cut better. For harder cutting, the steel behind the edge could ripple on the full flat blade.

As for ease of sharpening, there is a lot of confusion and several definitions of that term. In terms of holding a consistent angle, yes, scandi grinds are easier. In terms of time to sharpen, the full flat ground blade with a 10 degree edge bevel will take less time, given the same level of dullness and same steel, blade size, etc. The point could be made that it is faster to sharpen the scandi blade because its easier to get a consistent angle and consistency leads to speed. I lean toward the flat ground blade being faster under any circumstance just because of the much smaller amount of metal that would have to be removed.

The main advantage of scandi grinds is the simplicity and cost. Nearly any knife nut who's good at sharpening should be able to get a piece of steel, file an edge on it between 10 and 15 degrees, harden or send it out for hardening, and put handles on it. It may be butt ugly like mine, but its a functional knife in about a day, not counting shipping or epoxy curing time. Try some A2 about 1/16 or 3/32 inch thick and send it out to Texas Knifemakers Supply or Paul Bos for heat treating. The hardest part will be final sharpening after heat treating if any flat is left on the edge before heat treating. That would take a while. A softer temper would make things easier if the loss of edge holding is acceptable. My scandi ground knife is made from M2 ground from a mechanical hacksaw blade. Its a convex edge instead of flat, ground on my Harbor Freight 1 x 30 sander, at about 12 degrees per side. Its the first knife I've ever tried that would cut a folded piece of paper free standing on a table and leave the bottom sitting on the table. Very sharp, 1/16" spine, and still strong enough to dig/cut a hole through a 1 x 6 without damage.

 

[Thomas Linton]

For at least many people, a "Scandi grind" is a saber-ground knife with no (hence "zero") secondary bevel. The amount of "steel behind the edge" is a function of the final angle.

Because several here are refering to a "Scandi grind" as having at least some secondary bevel (like almost every knife made in Scandinavia or Finland that I have ever handled), there is little common frame of reference to this or most other discussions on this oft-discussed topic.

Not to mention the many knives made in Scandinavia with saber/convex, full-convex, or slightly concave grinds.

For the record, when Bushcraft UK did a comparison of knives for bushcraft, an iisakki järvenpää Oy product with a secondary bevel won the comparison. The author whio judged the competition then stated that he (of course ) removed the secondary bevel AFTER the contest (so the knife could be a "real Scandi ground knife"? All impurities must be removed. Faith over performance.).

And everyone knows that the best end to crack on a soft-boiled egg is the smaller end, right?

Use what you like. Scandinavians do.

Free-hand sharpen and they will all end up convexed.

 

[Any Cal.]

Since there are billions of angles and styles, it doesn't seem correct to say that one is "better", only that they can be better for a particular task.

To me, the scandi excels at wood cutting with the grain, due to the fact that the large bevel acts like the flat of a chisel. There is a reason a chisel isn't made w/ a full convex edge or a long flat grind. The scandi can be laid down and cut along the grain with a high amount of precision.

The larger the secondary bevel, the less able one is able to do this, as the large bevel begins to leave the surface more and more as the secondary bevel grows. In my own use, I would put a micro bevel on when I needed to sharpen, and continue that way until it was a few thousandths wide, which on one particular knife would be maybe 5 or 6 light sharpenings. At that point, it lost the ability to work like a scandi, so I would then lay the large bevel on a stone and take it down to a zero edge.

 

[A.L.]

What I wanted to express was just that when there is less resistance (acuter edge), it cuts better. Kind of same like when you sink into snow where wide pawed snow leopard doesnt..

I guess it could be explained with physics but Im not really good in terminology, especially in english.

Here some drawings I made:

 

[Stainz]

Oddly, I could put hair-raising/thumbnail paring edges on my woodcarving and turning edges decades ago. I still have the AR stone & diamond dust file collection - and even a Japaneese waterstone. I guess I was 'Scandi' edging back then! Also, I could make a two-side/double bevel pocket knife or fb go from slightly dull to really dull. Hmmm, I was convex sharpening then!

I have to admit, the Buck 850 Bravo folder I bought my son last year and their new 653 Nighthawk, both with the Besh Wedge design blade, were tempting to me because of the single bevel. I guess they were really a Scandi-ground Tanto blade. Semantics.

Gotta admit, a single-sided single-edged blade/chisel/gouge was a lot easier to maintain. I never knew what a Scandi edge was - thanks for the education.

Stainz

PS I have to admit, a properly done convex edge is easiest for me to maintain.

 

[A.L.]

I agree, convex by some reason is the easiest for me too. Sandpaper and mousepad works like charm.

 

[Thomas Linton]

What I wanted to express was just that when there is less resistance (acuter edge), it cuts better. Kind of same like when you sink into snow where wide pawed snow leopard doesnt..

I guess it could be explained with physics but Im not really good in terminology, especially in english.

Here some drawings I made:

Good drawings. Put a straight edge to work. In both illustrations, a full flat grind would produce a more acute edge than is physically possible with a "Scandi" grind. A hollow grind would produce an even more acute edge -- with the wedging resulting when cutting thick enough material.

 

[A.L.]

Depends if it really is full flat grind. Usually full flat grinds have a secondary bevel that takes down the whole idea of full flat.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Depends if it really is full flat grind. Usually full flat grinds have a secondary bevel that takes down the whole idea of full flat.

And a "Scandi" grind typically includes a secondary bevel as the knife comes from the factory. Everything depends.

 

[gottahaveit27]

And a "Scandi" grind typically includes a secondary bevel as the knife comes from the factory. Everything depends.

Actually they don't. Most blades advertised as scandi ground in my experience are just that, with no secondary bevel. Anyone who sells you a scandi ground blad with a secondary bevel is not being honest with you and shouldn't call it a scandi ground blade. Also full flat blades are virtually never full flat. This is so much the case that it is perfectly acceptable to call a knife with a secondary bevel full flat and it is generally assumed that the knife will have a secondary bevel.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Actually they don't. Most blades advertised as scandi ground in my experience are just that, with no secondary bevel. Anyone who sells you a scandi ground blad with a secondary bevel is not being honest with you and shouldn't call it a scandi ground blade. Also full flat blades are virtually never full flat. This is so much the case that it is perfectly acceptable to call a knife with a secondary bevel full flat and it is generally assumed that the knife will have a secondary bevel.

Actually, Scandinavian makers only began to use the expresion "Scandi grind" relatively recently. The name was apparently coined outside Scandinavia.

Otherwise, our experiences simply differ. I now have 49 knives, factory and custom, made in Scandinavia or Finland. Two have a saber grind with no secondary bevel. The others have a saber grind with secondary bevel, full fat grind with secondary bevel, convex or full convex grind, or concave grind.
Four were described as "Scandi Grind" and all four had secondary bevels.

The former mod of the Scandinavian knife forum at BritishBlades, a Scandivanian custom maker ("Trond") tried to explain in several posts why "Scandi Grind" was a misleading name for a grind seldom used in Scandivania or Finland, but apparently matters of faith or style need no facts to support them.

Otherwise, several posters here have explained that "Scandi" knives they own came with a secondary bevel. There is no recognized "Scandi Grind Name Police" to punish them for their temerity.

Buy what you like.

 

[gottahaveit27]

Actually, Scandinavian makers only began to use the expresion "Scandi grind" relatively recently. The name was apparently coined outside Scandinavia.

Otherwise, our experiences simply differ. I now have 49 knives, factory and custom, made in Scandinavia or Finland. Two have a saber grind with no secondary bevel. The others have a saber grind with secondary bevel, full fat grind with secondary bevel, convex or full convex grind, or concave grind.
Four were described as "Scandi Grind" and all four had secondary bevels.

The former mod of the Scandinavian knife forum at BritishBlades, a Scandivanian custom maker ("Trond") tried to explain in several posts why "Scandi Grind" was a misleading name for a grind seldom used in Scandivania or Finland, but apparently matters of faith or style need no facts to support them.

Otherwise, several posters here have explained that "Scandi" knives they own came with a secondary bevel. There is no recognized "Scandi Grind Name Police" to punish them for their temerity.

Buy what you like.

OK. But why wouldn't they be simply called Scandinavian knives, if it refers to them being from Scandinavia and has nothing to do with the grind? We all know what Scandi GRIND refers to. So when someone says this, it refers to something very specific about the grind (not the origin of the knife).

 

[Ramm9]

Most blades advertised as scandi ground in my experience are just that, with no secondary bevel. Anyone who sells you a scandi ground blad with a secondary bevel is not being honest with you and shouldn't call it a scandi ground blade.

I agree. Scandi Grind should mean a single grind that starts about half way down the blade ending at the edge with no other bevels. Whether the name has anything to do with Scandinavia is no longer significant, that is what it has come to mean.

We have makers here who have and may still claim a "Scandi" grind and then go on to say, "but there is a secondary bevel". They are wrong to be claiming a Scandi Grind. In one instance one of the makers here sold the Sandi Grind knives with secondary bevels so extreme you would be unable to bring it to a scandi grind if you wanted to.

From that experience I learned that the customer who wants a Scandi Grind as I just described needs to ask the maker about any additional bevels.

 

[shecky]

We're getting unnecessarily pedantic here. Definitions we use may only apply to the locals. Most folks around here seem to agree that Scandi grind is the simple single bevel associated with Mora knives. Not that it has any particular association with Scandinavia other than it's use on the inexpensive knives of the region. The terminology evolved as users saw fit. It doesn't mean that every knife from the region could or should be described as such. Perhaps it would be more accurate to refer to it as a "Mora grind"? Feel free to start the campaign to change the term. In the mean time, everyone here seems to know what is meant by the term "Scandi grind", and being a stickler for some kind of accuracy is really only being a stickler for some alternative made up term that has yet to be adopted by the masses.

 

[pedicabdriver]

Perhaps I should have titled the thread "Educate me on single-bevel grinds."

 

[Thomas Linton]

We're getting unnecessarily pedantic here. Definitions we use may only apply to the locals. Most folks around here seem to agree that Scandi grind is the simple single bevel associated with Mora knives. Not that it has any particular association with Scandinavia other than it's use on the inexpensive knives of the region. The terminology evolved as users saw fit. It doesn't mean that every knife from the region could or should be described as such. Perhaps it would be more accurate to refer to it as a "Mora grind"? Feel free to start the campaign to change the term. In the mean time, everyone here seems to know what is meant by the term "Scandi grind", and being a stickler for some kind of accuracy is really only being a stickler for some alternative made up term that has yet to be adopted by the masses.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

 

[gottahaveit27]

We're getting unnecessarily pedantic here. Definitions we use may only apply to the locals. Most folks around here seem to agree that Scandi grind is the simple single bevel associated with Mora knives. Not that it has any particular association with Scandinavia other than it's use on the inexpensive knives of the region. The terminology evolved as users saw fit. It doesn't mean that every knife from the region could or should be described as such. Perhaps it would be more accurate to refer to it as a "Mora grind"? Feel free to start the campaign to change the term. In the mean time, everyone here seems to know what is meant by the term "Scandi grind", and being a stickler for some kind of accuracy is really only being a stickler for some alternative made up term that has yet to be adopted by the masses.

I"m pretty sure this was directed toward you Mr. Linton as you lead the conversation in this direction by questioning the definition of a scandi grind. I do apologize to the original poster for taking the bait and getting off topic though.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Stopping kicking. The "fight" is over. It never started.

If one askes about a given style of knife, there should be an accepted definition of what he asks about, here a "a Scandi edge."

As long as everyone understands "Scandi edge" the same way, good communication takes place, even if there is disagreement on the merits of that style. If some understand "Scandi grind" as applying to any knife from Scandinavia or that it sometimes includes a secondary bevel, we get confusion.

 

[1234]

About traditional Scandinavian knives .

Don´t really matter if the knife is a beater , or a one of a kind masterpiece ,
they´ll probably have a "Scandi grind" edge ,

Some will keep the original edge profile , others will not , it´s about personal
preference .

In essence , most Scandinavian knives comes with a basic grind , then it´s up to you .

You may do whatever you want with it , the knife-maker has done their bit .

Sooner or later most look like this anyway !

http://www.cultur.nu/knivar/mora/morakniv120kr.jpg


1234,,,,,,

 

[A.L.]

There was a puukko like that at my grandmothers house, looked like a shiv!
True user!