Efficient silent takedown

Funny you say hit 'em with a hammer. My mom doesn't like the fact that I have "weapons" (nevermind the fact that the majority are tools.) So I tell her, if it makes you feel any better, if I was planning on killing someone with a handtool I'd go to the hardware store and spend 10 bucks on a hammer and save my expensive tools.
 
We used to play steal the log. When everyones had been on compo and saved up for one big dump in the field; the idea was to try and steal it from under him. If you had just squeezed out a large one and looked down to see your handy work and it wasn't there then you would be :eek: :confused: :confused: It could be done but very difficult unless after dark (use a long handled digging tool). There were all too many failed attempts, though the odd person was quite good at it. What I'm saying is its very difficult to get close, even when the adversary is concentrating on other things.

Then there is different levels of silent. Take .22 LR hitting a rabbit; it makes a real thwack. A kukri, from a full swing, whaack. Rifle butt: thunk. Nothing is very silent unless there is a ghetto blaster on (a diversion of some kind). I'm for pole axing the EN first which takes something big and heavy.

Modern soldiers with flack jackets and helmets don't give much of a target area. Though they may be "made safe" (unloaded, mag on; though shouldn't be). AK types may not even have the safety catch on.
You don't know.

Well placed senties will be doubled up or covered from another position. To take on a sentry, you'd want to be covered. Risky business.

In training, doing the odd snatch party to get an Enemy, is a good exercise, though it takes two to four to overpower one blighter. Its fun, difficult, and shows up close recce faults and sentry positioning well. But thats training.

Going around is by far the best option.
 
My dad was a WW2 ranger and (for whatever reason) taught me how he actually killed sentries. His preference was either with a garrotte or what he called the Japanese deathlock. With the knife he would put his left hand over the moth/nose and thrust the blade into the sentry's stomach. A deep stab followed by a slash side to side (without removing the blade after the thrust.)
A friend of mine was a Ranger in Vietnam. He showed me the knife attact to the base of the skull. He claimed to have even used it on 2 occasions. The answer? I do not know. My job title does not include sneaking up and taking out citizens ( but oh, how I have been tempted!!)
 
A Korean Ranger I met (U.S. type) killed a number of enemy forces (sentry and otherwise) using a ground down Fairbairn-Sykes fighting knife.

He said he would jam the fingers of one hand into the enemy soldier's nostrils which either pulled or pushed the head back thereby exposing the throat, depending on whether he hit them from the front or the rear. He then slammed the knife into the poor soul's throat and ripped the thing out.

He said that for years after the war he kept wiping imaginary snot off his hand from the experience(s)...

His story certainly puts a different light on the exotica of killing sentries with a blade...
 
Wow, huuummm, I think it's all situationally dictated. I think your chances of actually sneaking up on a dude that's standing guard are pretty slim. Your fatigue and unknown terrain w/darkness combine to act against you. As far as the base of the skull/brain scramble thing, man, if you can do that, just fly over the guy with your cape on and drop a rock his head. You guys seem to fixate on immediate incapacitation. Again, each situation is diffrent. All people are diffrent physiologically, (their responses). In the last month, I've seen a dude get hit over the head with a pipe wrench. I mean literally get smacked in the melon. The guy ran up, winded up, and swung for the fence. It still didn't knock the other guy out. He just fell to his knees. Now , any other person hit may have been dead. Who knows? That's why I believe that you can't count on these total incapacitation stabs. I do believe that either an E-tool to the base of the neck or a machete would definitely leave a mark on the bad guy. I would start with that and go from there
 
This link provided by James Sass in an earlier post includes a table regarding time of useful consciousness with various severed arteries:

http://www.gutterfighting.org/fairbairnknife.html

I found it extremely informative; not just the table but the whole article at this URL.

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Mike makes a good point regarding the E-tool and the improbablility of sneaking up on a guard.
I belonged to a Marine Corps outfit that taught clandestine movement to the other services, including Special Forces.
We taught how to sneak around guards, and not how to sneak up to them for the purposes of taking them out.
I suppose someone has done it (taken out a sentry), but I wonder how many people simply managed to raise the alarm trying to do it.
 
I would definitely take those times from the Fairbarn table w/ a grain of salt. I've seen people who have severed arteries & are perfectly awake/alert when the walk into the ED - many arteries (especially smaller ones) will go into spasm if they are cut & really won't bleed as much as you would think. Many others can be successfully compressed to limit the blood loss (subclavian is very difficult to control due to its location).
 
I have seen arteries severed by shearing trauma and pulling trauma which tend to close up and not bleed; however, my experience suggests that an artery cleanly cut by a sharp knife bleeds, and bleeds forcefully until addressed with pressure applied by a knowledgeable care-giver.

Even if my experience has misled me, it makes my point.

Cutting someone's throat does not make for either a silent, quick or certain resolution.
 
An efficient silent takedown, hmmm...
How about placing a small cooler, filled with snacks and booze, somewhere on the sentrie's route.
Of course the snacks and booze are poisoned...


Good luck,
Allen.
 
The Timetable of Death should be taken as a most general rule of thumb, not a sure-fire stopwatch law of nature.

A rear naked choke, such as the "japanese strangle", locked in with a forearm strike to the windpipe, then dropping your weight to fold their head over your forarm, breaking the neck - is a logical and effective "silent" takedown - people have died by accident in training with this type of choke.
 
I have spent considerable time practicing the technique James Sass describes above.
When the Marine Corps taught us this technique we had some concern amongst us that someone could get killed practicing it.

In my earlier days, I sometimes played with the idea of using it to clean up the work place.
"Whoops! He fell down the stairs. What a tragedy".
We all have these fantasies at some time in our lives.

This technique works against people who culturally hold their chin up high, or forward, as many Americans and many Asians typically do.
Less athletic people tend to lead with their chins, holding their head forward.
One might notice that wrestlers, judokas and jujitsu players tend to stand and walk with their elbows tucked in and back, and with their chin down and their head back.
Hard-working people and athletes in general hold their heads further back, which lowers the chin.

A rifle slung over the shoulder makes this technique very difficult and probably undoable.
However, if the attacker can successfully get his forearm under the victim's chin so that the attacker can place the forearm-hand palm down in the attacker's opposite palm-up (over the victim's shoulder) hand, the rest of the technique comes easy (if one has seen it done) and produces the same effect as the hangman's noose.

Not a subtle technique, it requires a full commitment on the attacker's part.
If done ineffectively, the attacker will still find himself in an advantageous postion compared to the victim; it just might get noisy.
 
Forgot to mention those chokes are opened up by a nearly simultaneous kidney-punch or inside edge-of-boot to the back of the knee - this tends to arch the person's upper torso-head-neck back to open them up for the choke, which must be laid on quickly.
 
Ball Peen Hammer or Claw Hammer?

I would think you have to get a good first shot in or they're going to "piss and moan" about it while you finish them off.:D
 
I always thought those plastic restraints LEO's use to hogtie resistant perps would make a good assassination device - they loop, close, and don't open without being cut off - like a garbage tie.

Sneak up - loop it over their head, jack it tight around their neck, and leave them to deal with it.

A spaceage plastic version of the "Sicilian necktie"
 
I see.
A self-sustaining garrotte.
My mechanics use these a lot and they come in sizes large enough to easily fit over someone's head with a handle left over for grip.

However, the recipient of the self-sustaining garrotte would simply need to take his knife and insert it between his...uh...neck...and...uh...

Hmmm.
 
I still like my idea better especially if the whole magazine is emptied into the targets head.
 
James, I see your Gutterfighting link and the WWII combatives, Do you know or have you worked with Bob Kasper?...He's a bad dude. He's got this little guy working for him named Marty, little hispanic dude, the guy can FIGHT! Skinny little arms but fast as a freakin' snake. The guy left some serious marks on me with a "Pug" trainer....back on subject, yea, I think the flexi-Cuff would definitely distract someone if you looped it over their head and tied it. How 'bout using just a airplane cable snare with locking device?
 
Miketm - I've been in communication with Bob Kasper for some time now, but have not had the opportunity to train with him - he's definately a wealth of knowledge on the more vicious aspects of Close Combat. He's a great guy, and definately someone you want on your side!

I think you're refering to Marty Cruz, who also assists Kelly McCann (Jim Grover) on his "Situation Self-Offense" tape.

Everyone in the GHCA/Crucible crew are stand-alone forces to be reckoned with.
 
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