ELMAX Steel Chips Easily?

I don't think the cold has anything to do with it. I've never used my knife in EXTREME cold like subzero temperatures, but plenty in 0-20 F weather. In fact I once had to pry my gas tank hatch open after it got frozen over with ice and stuff, and I did that with 1095 no problem when it was 18 F out. Yeah the tip blunted a lot but point is, that was while prying/chiping away at ice and steel in pretty cold stuff, and it didn't chip, and 1095 isn't as tough as ELMAX.
 
Charr said:
Hey Ankerson, I've read most of your research on here, and thanks for the input. Haveyou ever had experience with these steels in colder temperatures, or even bellow 0? I have seen several reports that it can change some of the properties of some steels, but I wanted to know if you knew anything about it.



And since then Kai has had to admit that there was an issue with their grinders overheating the blades because of insufficient cooling and burning out the heat treat in the blades. They have since rectified the issue, but again, there are going to be some knives out there by ZT that will have this issue, though it wasn't a 100% consistent issue to start with, so there's no easy way to tell if one has a problem or not.

Of course, when soemthing like this happens, it has to be considered a possibility.
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Question. When did this happen?
 
EagleScouter said:
Question. When did this happen?
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Well I had thought they made an actual statement but looking for it I'm unable to find it. There are inumerable 3rd parties supporting the issue, but I can't find ZT themselves talking about it.

Huh. Maybe I was mistaken on that? Anyone else have luck on this or remember it?
 
Thomas Linton said:
No offense, sir, but threads like this are along the lines of: "I bought a loaf of bread made of wheat flour. It was burned on the bottom. What's up with wheat flour? Should I have purchased rye?"

As others have suggested, a lot more goes into knife performance than the raw material.
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I think it's more along the lines of, "this is my first loaf of wheat flour, and I'm not satisfied with it. Is the reason that I'm not satisfied common for this bread?"

The answer regarding ELMAX, for all I knew, could have been, "yes, ELMAX, chips easily, because _______."

Just like for bread, people could say, "yes, because of the way that wheat flour bread is produced, it is always burned on the bottom." Or, "that's not common, I think you got a bad loaf of bread that was probably manufactured incorrectly." Or, "did you use your bread? If you use your bread it can get burnt, try not using your bread."
 
Charr said:
Huh. Maybe I was mistaken on that? Anyone else have luck on this or remember it?
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We all remember it but I don't think ZT ever made a statement admitting anything. Correct me if I am wrong. It was allegedly the early 0560s.
 
I have not experienced chipping with Elmax. I have cleaned and cut wire and battoned (nothing frozen or massie ) with my 801.
I also have a 0566 I thinned the bevels quite a bit, no chipping.

@ OP:
You have to realize that stock blades come with certain grinds, and they may have to be adjusted to the tasks they will be used for optimal performance.
Cleaning frozen branches will chip blades not meant for that task, especially if there is not enough steel behind the edge to support it.
What other tasks have you used the knife for?
 
Charr said:
James,
If you ever get a chance to test one of those knives in extreme cold, let us know what happens. I'm honestly very curious about the details of how steels are affected by things like cold, especially in something like a "survival knife".
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I'm curious about that, too. I live in East Tennessee now, so I just don't see those kind of temps anymore. I'm certainly open to sending a knife way up north just to see what happens when it's beaten like a rented mule below zero, as opposed to being beaten like a rented mule at 75F. I could be wrong, but I suspect the differences wouldn't be as dramatic as some people claim. We're talking about steel here, not peanut brittle.

dejard said:
But I can imagine this sort of testing would be very expensive to do.
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You're right about that. Serious testing to get anything resembling "scientific" results would require a whole bunch of knives and a great deal of man-hours under closely-controlled conditions. That's not gonna happen any time soon, unless I win the lottery. ;)

stabman said:
Perhaps the label of "super steel" has misled some folks into thinking it's an indestructible alloy that never needs sharpening, much like Wolverine's claws...
Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but that wasn't an informational booklet; it was a comic book. ;)
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Yeah... like I said before, the "failures" I've seen posted in this thread and others are a bit troublesome... but it's not stuff that would really ruin your day if you were lost in the woods or dressing a deer or faced with a horde of zombies. :D

dogrunner said:
Frozen wood or bone is very hard and those are probably the most challenging things I've had to cut.
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Cutting frozen wood to length and cutting definitely bone (cold or not), is a job for a saw, not a knife. So... there's that. *shrug*

One thing I can absolutely guarantee after nearly a decade of studying knives, making knives, testing knives, and picking the brains of the very best knifemakers on the planet is this: You can dull, chip or break ANY knife if you try hard enough.
 
Charr said:
If you ever get a chance to test one of those knives in extreme cold, let us know what happens. I'm honestly very curious about the details of how steels are affected by things like cold
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In general the fracture toughness of steel is reduced in cold temperatures. A piece of the steel hull of the Titanic was recovered and tested and showed poor toughness. In cold water it would have been even worse. This allowed the iceburg to rip a long gash in the hull. Another example- some eyebar bridge structures have collapsed in cold weather due to brittle fracture of the eyebars.

I don't know if this means that a knife that doesn't normally chip under use would suddenly be prone to chipping if used in cold temperatures.
 
james terrio said:
Cutting frozen wood to length and cutting definitely bone (cold or not), is a job for a saw, not a knife. So... there's that. *shrug*

.
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You will note I did not say I was cutting anything to length, nor that I damaged any knife edges! In fact, I had been using a hacksaw on some frozen deer legs to cut off meat and fat, but the teeth all sheared off when they hit the bone underneath. I used a knife to cut away the frozen meat after the hacksaw failure, but kind of hard to avoid hitting bone. No harm done to blade but watch for skidding blades.
Wood cutting was for clearing stems to make some open space to park a dogsled in. I could not swing the hatchet in the brush I was working in. In any case, I use the tools I have at the time when I need them :)
 
james terrio said:
I'm curious about that, too. I live in East Tennessee now, so I just don't see those kind of temps anymore. I'm certainly open to sending a knife way up north just to see what happens when it's beaten like a rented mule below zero, as opposed to being beaten like a rented mule at 75F. I could be wrong, but I suspect the differences wouldn't be as dramatic as some people claim. We're talking about steel here, not peanut brittle.
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Unless you send one down to Antarctica in the Winter time, real close to the South Pole then maybe if they left it out in the cold for a few days... Then tried to beat rocks with it.

Even then I dunno.
 
james terrio said:
The short answer is, I have absolute confidence in Elmax with pro-level HT taking a very crisp edge, performing extremely well and holding up to a lot of "hard use". I happily entrust both my life and my livelihood to it.

I have my Elmax blades (whether paper-thin kitchen cutlery or much sturdier "survival" knives) HT'ed by Brad Stallsmith at Peters Heat Treat. I have no idea what HT service or protocol bigger manufacturers are using.

Elmax is pretty dang tough. Not just "tough for a stainless steel", but just plain tough... frankly, I'm very pleasantly surprised by its overall resilience. In my experience, it holds its own just fine with classic carbon steels in rough use like hacking with a thin edge and digging through wood with a fine tip, while exhibiting much better resistance to abrasive wear.

My friends and I have used my Elmax knives at 58Rc with a pretty thin edge HARD - some would say abusively - with remarkably little dulling and no chipping at all. I'm talking about chopping/splitting nasty gnarly red oak full of knots, among many other demanding tasks. Mind you, all that was at ambient temps from 50F to 90F, so very cold temperatures may have some effect... I honestly don't know.

I have not yet done that sort of testing on Elmax at 60Rc, but I will. If that goes well, I'll run a batch at 62Rc and see how that holds up.

On the other hand... sometimes I think you cats are a little too persnickety about what you call "chipping"... the pics of "failures" I'm seeing in this thread are not at all catastrophic, and could be easily sharpened out.

Any small knife with a thin grind, made of any steel, could possibly "chip" that way... lots of factors come into play. I realize that our standards are high, but personally, I would not be offended by a tiny ding. I've seen $400 customs shatter under less strenuous work... that offended me. ;)
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From my pic it look much worse IRL and took me to 2 hour to sharpen the chipping out with DMT Extra course diamond.

I'm not sure what you talking about but from my experience with 3 knife from ZT one from Microtech and another one from Lionsteel, I wouldn't considered Elmax a tough steel by any mean.
 
shqxk said:
From my pic it look much worse IRL and took me to 2 hour to sharpen the chipping out with DMT Extra course diamond.

I'm not sure what you talking about but from my experience with 3 knife from ZT one from Microtech and another one from Lionsteel, I wouldn't considered Elmax a tough steel by any mean.
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Interesting, it took me less than an hour to put bevels on an A11 blade at 62.5 that was .015" thick with a 320 grit SIC stone, yeah the blade didn't have any edge bevel on it all all when I got it, it was .020" behind the edge when I was finished.

Would have taken a lot less time with my 120 SIC, but I wanted to see how long it would take me.

So I am not sure how it took 2 hours to remove some minor chips out of ELMAX, I could have ground the whole blade away in that amount of time.
 
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shqxk said:
I don't have sharpening jig then I have to do it free hand.


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Could have done the same with my Norton SIC Stones FREEHAND, have a Fine, Med and Coarse that I use.

Would have taken maybe 10 mins max, not 2 hours....
 
Zt has had a large variation in their elmax lately. My 0561 will achieve a rolled edge with light whittling on dead branches in the back yard. In y our case, it may be due to temperature, the temperature seems to affect hardness especially on d2 and other harder steels, chip resistant or not.
 
BladeMaster99 said:
Zt has had a large variation in their elmax lately. My 0561 will achieve a rolled edge with light whittling on dead branches in the back yard. In y our case, it may be due to temperature, the temperature seems to affect hardness especially on d2 and other harder steels, chip resistant or not.
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It takes a min of 400 degrees F to have any effect on knife steels.

So I doubt the temp would be having much of an effect unless it's a normal 400 degrees were you live.

That or Negative 180 degrees.

Really one would have to freeze it in LN2 at -320 then smack it on something hard to shatter it.

ELMAX Data Sheet.

http://www.uddeholm.com/files/PB_Uddeholm_elmax_english.pdf

A Min of 390 F Tempering Temp and 480 F min recommended and 2 hours at that temp for 2 cycles, 980 F recommended, 1980 F soak temps.

So in short any kind of normal temperature curves that we see on planet Earth won't have any effect.
 
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