Elmax steel edge deformation?

Atakdog

Atakdog

Joined
Sep 3, 2012
Messages
195
I got a Zero Tolerance 0560 recently, and wanted it partly because of the good things I had heard about the new Elmax steel; one thing people said was that it is very tough.
In the days after I got it I went into the woods to do some testing. One thing I tested was the stabbing ability by stabbing it into a tree in forward and reverse grips a total of less than 10 times while not even using my full strength, and I'm not a big guy.
When I got home I could see that the edge had been flattened from the tip to the exact point it stopped penetrating into the wood, and confirmed this in paper cutting.:confused:
I have done similar tests with 440c, 420hc, 14c28n, s30v, and s35vn with nothing similar ever happening.

Is the steel not tempered properly, thin edge geometry (the grind is noticeably uneven), etc.
I would like to know what the issue is and if anyone has experienced this before.
 
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Do people where you live spike trees? I can't imaging that should happen. Can you measure the edge angle and thickness behind the edge/at the top of the edge bevel? Is there a chance it is a burned/overheated edge from factory sharpening? I don't know how they sharpen their knives, but it's easy to overheat an edge if using power tools.
 
Maybe because of your too high of ecpectation on the steel. Elmax is strong steel but not that hard, that's why you only flattened the tip but didn't break the tip. Just my .02
 
Elmax is supposed to be harder than s30v right? I didn't get anything like this on my s30v knife with a 30 degree edge.
 
me2 said:
Do people where you live spike trees? I can't imaging that should happen. Can you measure the edge angle and thickness behind the edge/at the top of the edge bevel? Is there a chance it is a burned/overheated edge from factory sharpening? I don't know how they sharpen their knives, but it's easy to overheat an edge if using power tools.
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It looks like the edge is about 40 degrees, but one side is about 5-10 degrees different than the other. I think it could be overheated because of bad sharpening; in addition to the one-sided edge it gets thin the last 1/8" on one side of he tip.
 
Kershaw does fantastic heat treats on their blades but if they overheated the blade should result of the tip breakage instead of flatten it? I’d assume maybe the other way around. Try some long range cutting and see how it holds the edge. Look at the bright side the tip still there, it’s all good ;)
 
Sharpen it a few times, a good full, burr forming, edge destressing, metal removing sharpening. If it shapes up after that, it was an overheated edge. It's very easy to do. I've seen people do it even on water cooled wheels.
 
Elmax is supposed to be harder than s30v right? I didn't get anything like this on my s30v knife with a 30 degree edge.
Click to expand...

Hardness is a variable. Elmax is intended to be at different harnesses when used by different makers for different models. How hard was this knife made? How hard was it supposed to be made?

How hard was the wood? What sort of tree where you "stabbing"? Did you hit a knot?

Is the knife sold as a product to stab trees?
 
Thomas Linton said:
Hardness is a variable. Elmax is intended to be at different harnesses when used by different makers for different models. How hard was this knife made? How hard was it supposed to be made?

How hard was the wood? What sort of tree where you "stabbing"? Did you hit a knot?

Is the knife sold as a product to stab trees?
Click to expand...
i am not good with tree types; i think it was maple; anyways, it had thin bark and I did not hit a knot.
I believe knives are tools used for cutting things, and a medium streingth stab would not be abuse to a knife, none the less one made by ZT, who supports people actually using their knives.
 
Update:
I decided to try to get rid of the burr by slididing a ceramic rod from my Spyderco Sharpmaker over it, and I am now sure that it is a tempering issue. I estimate its softer than my Leatherman's 420hc, which I remember seeing is around 56 Rockwell.

This knife is going back for warranty.
 
Update:
I decided to try to get rid of the burr by slididing a ceramic rod from my Spyderco Sharpmaker over it, and I am now sure that it is a tempering issue. I estimate its softer than my Leatherman's 420hc, which I remember seeing is around 56 Rockwell.

This knife is going back for warranty.
 
I was all over getting me a 560 in elmax, but I have seen way too many threads like this. Stabbing a tree isn't abuse of a knife and the steel should easily hold up to this. I will be now looking at the new flippers by Benchmade and Spyderco. Thanks for the info.
 
Jessekf said:
I was all over getting me a 560 in elmax, but I have seen way too many threads like this. Stabbing a tree isn't abuse of a knife and the steel should easily hold up to this. I will be now looking at the new flippers by Benchmade and Spyderco. Thanks for the info.
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I did NOT start this thread to get people to not buy the ZT 0560. Besides the hardness issue it is an truely amazing knife. I have not actually seen anyone having similar hardness issues with this with this knife or with any KAI made knife. I think it is an honest factory mistake that happens to all manufacturers once in a while and I would still highly reccomend this knife.
 
Atakdog said:
I did NOT start this thread to get people to not buy the ZT 0560. Besides the hardness issue it is an truely amazing knife. I have not actually seen anyone having similar hardness issues with this with this knife or with any KAI made knife. I think it is an honest factory mistake that happens to all manufacturers once in a while and I would still highly reccomend this knife.
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I didnt mean to sound like I was hating it for no reason. Its all just personal preference. I have seen 3 threads, including a video, that show really soft, rolling steel in the Elmax 560/561's. I personally think the knife is slightly too big for my EDC's. Take the size, and the steel and thats why I passed up on it, but that doesnt mean its the wrong knife for everyone.
 
Thomas Linton said:
Hardness is a variable.
Elmax is intended to be at different harnesses when used by different makers for different models.
How hard was this knife made? How hard was it supposed to be made?
How hard was the wood?
What sort of tree where you "stabbing"?
Did you hit a knot?
Is the knife sold as a product to stab trees?
Click to expand...

This set of questions should be asked every time we evaluate performance of a blade :thumbup:
(of course there will be more questions to come).

I was contemplating about Elmax or Vanax for a custom Nessie from a custom maker;
At HRC 58-59 you will have the good toughness of Elmax at disposal and at HRC61-62 you will have its edge retention.
Comparing M390 together, Elmax comes up as a combo of excellence at the right intend of use.
 
You could have a wire edge. I would sharpen it good and use it some more to see how it behaves before sending it back. If it were me. Shipping them off is a pain if it can be fixed with a simple sharpening.
 
Tree bark it often full of dirt and the bark itself can be harsh on a cutting edge. I'm not really surprised by your results.

What I can't figure out is why one would consider stabbing a tree as some sort of test to validate the capabilities of a knife. Tree stabbing is not something you typically find on the list of things a folder should do.
 
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