Elmax steel edge deformation?

Tree stabbing isn't what I consider a test nor is it knife use, it's just pointless, pun intended.
 
foxx said:
Tree stabbing isn't what I consider a test nor is it knife use, it's just pointless, pun intended.
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And yet other knives in other steels that are much less expensive are capable of it without the edge flattening noted on the Elmax blade.

Just so everyone is clear, can anyone list the intended uses of this or other ZT knives? Failing that, can anyone list discouraged uses? Hinderer knives and presumably his designs for other companies are billed as rough use blades with better than normal durability. If the rather tired notion that knives are only for cutting is to be applied to this design, can someone explain the use of saber ground blades made from stock greater than 1mm in thickness with edge angles greater than 12 degrees per side?

To the starter of this thread, can you get all your knives together with fresh edges and repeat the wood stabbing on something like a 2x4, for the sake of consistency, and see what happens then? I still think you may have an overheated edge from the factory. If you haven't already sent it back, resharpen it a few times. It's also very possible you have a tree with some nasty inclusions. You can find trees with nails, arrow heads, barbed wire, etc here without looking very far.
 
I have just never needed to stab a tree. Even if a tree attacked me, I doubt stabbing it would make a difference. Do you test new cars the same way?
 
Never stabbed anything with any car, new or otherwise. I have the "tired old notion" that they are for driving. But some just will ram things with them.

Knives not as tools but as entertainment devices.
 
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This knife is marketed as a "hard use knife" directly from ZT, maker of combat knives. Stabbing wood (which trees are made from) is not out of it's scope of work. Some dulling would be expected eventually, but not flattened after a few stabs.

I don't test my own cars, but I do expect a Mustang or Camero or Lexus to handle driving through a field to park at the state fair. Not how it's primarily used or advertised, but those cars should be able to do it, just as a high end combat knife should take stabbing a few times into wood, no matter what kind it is.

99% of people who buy combat knives are guilty of using knives as entertainment devices, so at least the OP isn't alone.
 
Jessekf said:
I didnt mean to sound like I was hating it for no reason. Its all just personal preference. I have seen 3 threads, including a video, that show really soft, rolling steel in the Elmax 560/561's. I personally think the knife is slightly too big for my EDC's. Take the size, and the steel and thats why I passed up on it, but that doesnt mean its the wrong knife for everyone.
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I was not aware that there are other threads on this issue. Could you tell me where I could fond them.
 
In response st the last few posts:
The 0560 is indeed meant to be a hard use knife. Rick Hinderer used his knives on his job as a paramedic and firefighter; not jobs where you cut paper and string.
Also, ZT intends for all of their knives to be used. They have stories of people in the military beating them up, and gave three of their knives to a guy on Youtube to be tested. I have watched the videos and he batons them thought bolts and stabs them into not a tree, but the hood of a car. By the way, 2of them were folders.
To me2: I got the 0560, my 14c28n Kershaw Skyline, and the s30v and 420hc blades on my Leatherman's and did some stabbing and chopping on a block of some type if hardwood I had lying around. Though it was less than it was before, the 0560 was the only one with edge issues after.
I will be sending it out for warranty in a few days.
 
I have done similar tests with 440c, 420hc, 14c28n, s30v, and s35vn with nothing similar ever happening.
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The only problems I see with the test is that it is not well controlled nor anywhere near taxing enough to any steel to discern a difference. But I am of the idea that wood tends to not cause steel a great deal of trouble. Something about saws, axes, drills, chisels, rasps, gouges, and such.
 
I have a 561 as well and I am very underwhelmed with the performance of Elmax. I do not know if the steel is just too soft or what, but I have 440C blades I made that will hold a better edge. If I had not already reground the blade I would consider sending it back as well. I may try a cryo treatment and see if that makes a difference.
 
I've heard that many custom makers prefer Elmax with proper Cryo treatment. Big Chris please let us know your findings if you do decide to do the Cryo? I know I would value what you thought:thumbup:
 
wait wait wait. that would not be happend. I mean, a "living" tree, is not capable of flatting a sharp knife.
Not with wood. An not with a steel with a good heat treatment.
Doesn't matter if it was 440 a-b-c or vg10 ora zdp189.
maybe it's a ht failure. Anyway, for whom to say that it could be possible, this is not true. You may loose the hair shaving, but, again, not necessarely. It should cut paper easily.
Believe me: it a HT failure. I have used elmax and, even it is not the definitive inox steel, is not a crap.
 
How many reports of the Elmax ZT's like this have come up on the boards? There has to be a problem that isn't being addressed. The first one I remember seeing was a guy who chipped his edge pretty good on SMALL zip ties. I am a long time Kershaw fan, have quite a few, but I will be steering clear of the Elmax blades for the time being. I agree, you should be able (not that I condone it) to stab a living tree with a hard use knife and not see edge deformation, come on.
 
I agree with me2 a knife thats advertised as a hard use folder shouldnt get deformed from stabbing a tree. I dont know why you would stab a tree but i definitly dont think thats abuse of a knife of that nature. If you go out and stab a tree with a kershaw leek i would say that is dumb and abuse. But with a zt i dont think so. And me personally i would send it back. You could sharpen it out but if you spend that kind of money on a knife it shouldn't come like that. If it was a 40 dollar beater maybe. In my mind your spending alot of money to get that extra quality and toughness so they should fix it not you. Just my 2 cents im no expert.
 
me2 said:
And yet other knives in other steels that are much less expensive are capable of it without the edge flattening noted on the Elmax blade.

Just so everyone is clear, can anyone list the intended uses of this or other ZT knives? Failing that, can anyone list discouraged uses? Hinderer knives and presumably his designs for other companies are billed as rough use blades with better than normal durability. If the rather tired notion that knives are only for cutting is to be applied to this design, can someone explain the use of saber ground blades made from stock greater than 1mm in thickness with edge angles greater than 12 degrees per side?

To the starter of this thread, can you get all your knives together with fresh edges and repeat the wood stabbing on something like a 2x4, for the sake of consistency, and see what happens then? I still think you may have an overheated edge from the factory. If you haven't already sent it back, resharpen it a few times. It's also very possible you have a tree with some nasty inclusions. You can find trees with nails, arrow heads, barbed wire, etc here without looking very far.
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It's also possible to hit a knot in the wood. That will mess up any steel's edge.

Hinderer knives are billed as rough use blades, but they're not meant to be used as staking tools.
Please refer to their warranty page:
http://www.rickhindererknives.com/rick-hinderer-terms-conditions/

I've stabbed white oak wood with my 560 with no issues to the tip, or edge.

Could you post pictures as to exactly how this flattened? What if the edge just rolled?
 
I have a 0561, after only minimal use (verrrry light) the edge is folding and needs resharpening ... was really disappointed with Elmax , but it's a good lesson for me not to pay too much attention to the steel selling point ... it's more of a marketing for knife nuts like us imo ... let's see how it hold up after a little reprofiling..
shame as i like this knife design a lot , but between the blade edge retention and the super soft titanium lock , i'm far from impressed with the actual performances :(
 
Anyway don't stab living trees, if not necessary. Use dead ones. Don't waste time, resources and good things as a tree is.
Of course, dry wood is a quiete better test for a knife.
 
hmm i have an older 560 and it dosent have this issue at all. how cold was it when you "murdered" the tree?
 
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Elmax is an excellent steel that has tested out well. The Elmax on my 0560 is the feature I most like about the knife. I've reprofiled the edge bevel to 15 dps (degrees per side). The blade is pretty thick. The reprofiled bevel is 2 mm wide ( 3/32nds of an inch) and the at the shoulder it's 0.0455 inches wide. By comparison, my Sebenza's edge width at the shoulder is 0.0185. Even with light chopping and heavy cutting, the Elmax has performed very well.

Stabbing a tree as a test is dangerous at worst, and inconclusive at best. A stab into twisted grain can cause your fingers to open the frame lock. I've opened my just by prying off an excess line of spray insulation.

And wood is a terrible medium for testing because it is so inconsistent. I live off-grid in the rainforest of the Olympic Peninsula. My only heat is fire wood. I'm often amazed at the twisted grain or old, hardened twigs or sections of hardened wood I encounter when splitting fire wood.

The 0560 is a heavy blade with an early, steep belly. Normally, I'd expect the bulk of a stabbing load to be carried by the blade sides as it tries to split the wood. It wouldn't normally be a good test of the edge.

If the blade was over heated during sharpening, you're going to need more than a Sharpmaker to restore the profile down to good metal. The blade could also have had a wire edge from the factory.

But the bottom line is that nothing in the OP's report gives us enough information to know what happened here.
 
Just did 50 or more stabs on white oak, including some stabs at a wood knot.
The wood is approximately 1 year old and kinda dry.

Only damage was a very small nick, and maybe .05mm missing from the very tip... if that.
Also as a bonus, stabbed a thinkpad T60 palm rest, and stabbed it's thin aluminum reinforcement sheet.

Video is being edited, and will be uploaded overnight. I will edit this post with the thread link.
 
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