Elmax?????

M.FREEZE

M.FREEZE

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I know "good" is a relative term, but how good is elmax steel? What type of knife would it be suited for?
 
If you like stainless steels, especially powdered stainless steels..then Elmax is beyond good, it's great! Elmax grinds as easily as 154 CM, takes a very nice finish and edge. It has great corrosion resistance and edge retention. It's not as tough as 3V and may not be the best knife in the world to make a heavy duty chopper out of, but it's an amazing all around steel that does a great many things really well! I enjoy working with it and really enjoy using it.
 
I agree with Johnny 100%. Elmax is a great stainless and very well rounded for many types of blades. Folders to kitchen slicers to fairly large blades destined for rough use are suitable to Elmax depending how hard you take the steel. 59-61+ is typical.
 
OTK said:
I agree with Johnny 100%. Elmax is a great stainless and very well rounded for many types of blades. Folders to kitchen slicers to fairly large blades destined for rough use are suitable to Elmax depending how hard you take the steel. 59-61+ is typical.
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Yes, thank you Matt. Should have mention the RC. 60 RC is my goal for my Elmax blades and Brad is usually spot on. They do very well in the 59-61 range.
 
Nathan, while I'm no expert....my own personal experience tells me that the increased carbon content of Elmax, 1.7% as opposed to only 1.05% in CPM 154 helps it take a slightly better edge than the CPM 154. What do most carbon steel knife makers say they love about the high carbon steel.....what a great edge it will take.

Secondly, wear resistance and corrosion resistance are both aided by chromium, and Elmax is 17% chromium, while CPM 154 is only 14%.

I don't want to just throw numbers around though. My own experience in my shop has led me to believe that these things are true. CPM 154 is still an amazing steel, and I have used a bunch of it and will continue to do so, but I can't deny that Elmax has a slight edge over it.
 
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I agree with Jon, my opinion is that Elmax is superior to CPM 154. It also costs more and is slightly harder to work. I would use Elmax or M390 on every stainless knife if economy, availability, and end user didn't play a role. It really depends on the application, in my opinion. I've become a big fan of AEB-L, but my needs are different than Jon's or others. I wouldn't make a a hard use knife out of AEB-L. I do want to try Vanax.

My experience is based on what I have used, only stainless. 440C is great steel but not up to abuse. Elmax and M390 are awesome. CPM 154 is awesome but lacks some corrosion resistance. AEB-L is not up to abuse but has awesome corrosion resistance and is user-friendly, grind it to near zero.
 
Nathan read my mind. I hope others will join in and give their experience and opinions.
 
Elmax is lovely stuff :thumbup: Like Johnny, I have mine HT'ed by Brad Stallsmith at Peters' HT. He would be the guy to call for specific recommendations on hardness for intended use.

silver_pilate said:
Johnny and others, what are your thoughts comparing Elmax to CPM154?
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I agree with the other folks... I love CPM-154 and I like Elmax even more. It has a similar profile of characteristics, just better across the board. CPM-154 has become my "budget" steel... and CPM-154 is pretty darn good :thumbup:

If you've worked with CTS-XHP, Elmax is neck-and-neck with it in my experience - both show great toughness that can easily support thin geometries, superb crisp edge, not crazy difficult to sharpen, excellent corrosion-resistance. Elmax wins because I can actually get my hands on it, otherwise I think it would be a toss-up.
 
Elmax is way more wear resistant than CPM-154 or XHP as it is 3% Vanadium where the others are V free or just a dash added. This is evident when you hand rub a few blades made from Elmax ;)

What, to me, makes it sweet is that it is super finely grained. It grinds well even hardened and will take a good looking finish. The formula is quite similar to S30V but it behaves completely differently in my experience. One can only guess this is attributed to the 3rd generation PM of BU, but at any rate...I think it's awesome!
 
OTK said:
Elmax is way more wear resistant than CPM-154 or XHP as it is 3% Vanadium where the others are V free or just a dash added. This is evident when you hand rub a few blades made from Elmax ;)
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That's a good point. I like vanadium. A little goes a long way. I do as much finishing on high-alloy steels -- especially ones with vanadium -- as possible before HT.

OTK said:
What, to me, makes it sweet is that it is super finely grained... One can only guess this is attributed to the 3rd generation PM of BU, but at any rate...I think it's awesome!
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I think you're right about that, too. We live in exciting times. Elmax's chemistry really isn't all that crazy or remarkable compared to other high-end tool and die steels. But it sure does seem clean, fine-grained and consistent :thumbup:

ELmax (according to Bohler/Uddeholm)
Carbon 1.7%
Silicon 0.8
Manganese 0.3
Chromium 18.0
Molybdenum 1.0
Vanadium 3.0
 
In my opinion, Elmax is the most versatile stainless steel on the market. The key to the Elmax is in the heat treatment. Use heat treatment to match the intended use of the knife.

Examples:
• You want a tough chopper and must use a stainless steel.
• Use Elmax heat treated to HRC 59. At HRC 59 it is 50% tougher than S30V at HRC 57. Elmax is the toughest stainless steel available.

• You want a stainless steel that has excellent edge holding without chipping.
• Use Elmax heat treated to HRC 62. At HRC 62 it out cut M4 in CATRA testing. The toughness is better than S30V at HRC 57 or 154CM at HRC 54.

In our own testing the only stainless steels that beat Elmax in edge retention are S90V and M390. I'm sure S110V and S125V will also out cut Elmax but I have not tested knives with these steels.

Bottom line, let the use and knife design how the Elmax will be heat treated. If you are going to send the blade out for heat treating verify your heat treater can austenitize at temperatures above 2,000°. I much prefer Elmax heat treated at 2,100° austenitizing temperature.

Here is a comparison of Elmax with other steels:

Tbl--Elements.gif
Tbl-Elmax.gif
Tbl-CPMS30V.gif
Tbl-CPMS35VN.gif
Tbl-CTSXHP.gif
Tbl-M390.gif
Tbl-CPMS90V.gif
Tbl-CPMS110V.gif


Chuck
 
james terrio said:
That's a good point. I like vanadium. A little goes a long way. I do as much finishing on high-alloy steels -- especially ones with vanadium -- as possible before HT.



I think you're right about that, too. We live in exciting times. Elmax's chemistry really isn't all that crazy or remarkable compared to other high-end tool and die steels. But it sure does seem clean, fine-grained and consistent :thumbup:

ELmax (according to Bohler/Uddeholm)
Carbon 1.7%
Silicon 0.8
Manganese 0.3
Chromium 18.0
Molybdenum 1.0
Vanadium 3.0
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James, after reading this I sure am glad I have an Elmax blade coming from you!
 
jonnymac44 said:
...the increased carbon content of Elmax, 1.7% as opposed to only 1.05% in CPM 154 helps it take a slightly better edge than the CPM 154
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That's simply not true. ... certainly not in such a narrow view of "more carbon means finer edges".

Carbon content over 1% by itself actually makes steel much more brittle, if there are no other elements to mitigate it. Carbon percentage has almost zero effect on how fine an edge can be.

The "extra" carbon in Elmax is tied up in carbides of chromium, molybdenum and especially vanadium. Those carbides are a big part of what makes it and other similar powder-steels so wear-resistant and tough. The other part is extremely fine manufacturing tolerances.
 
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james terrio said:
That's simply not true. ... certainly not in such a narrow view of "more carbon means finer edges".

Carbon content over 1% by itself actually makes steel much more brittle, if there are no other elements to mitigate it. Carbon percentage has almost zero effect on how fine an edge can be.

The "extra" carbon in Elmax is tied up in carbides of chromium, molybdenum and especially vanadium. Those carbides are a big part of what makes it and other similar powder-steels so wear-resistant and tough. The other part is extremely fine manufacturing tolerances.
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James, when you quoted me, you left out the beginning of the sentence where it says "I'm no expert"! :D Your post makes sense. When I made that response it was based on my experience where I feel that the Elmax indeed takes a finer edge. I could be imagining that but it does seem that way when I'm sharpening my knives. The carbon part was basically a hunch based on what makers who prefer high carbon steel often say, which is that they love what a nice, fine edge carbon steel will take. Interesting to learn where the "extra" carbon goes, helping to bolster those carbides and add toughness. Thanks!:thumbup:
 
Jon, I'm no expert either ;) Just muddling through what I've learned from folks who know much more than I, plus a few tidbits from my own experience :)
 
jstn said:
James, after reading this I sure am glad I have an Elmax blade coming from you!
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Thanks for your support! I expect your blade to come back from Peters' HT in a week or two :)
 
Hi Chuck/AKS,

I don't know if this is too early to ask but in terms of toughness, how is Elmax measured with Vanax (35, 75)?
I read that the Vanax has better corrosion resistance than Elmax with the high Nitrogen content but the line just isn't clear enough.
With a higher RC (61-62) in Elmax, could it be the toughest stainless in the market currently?
 
JayGoliath said:
....in terms of toughness, how is Elmax measured with Vanax (35, 75)?
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Vanax at HRC 59 has average toughness. We've chipped it in our torture testing i.e., very thin edge and twisting while cutting. Elmax is much tougher.

You asked about Vanax (35,75). Vanax 75 was discontinued before it was mass produced. The remaining Vanax 35 was shortened to Vanax.

JayGoliath said:
With a higher RC (61-62) in Elmax, could it be the toughest stainless in the market currently?
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I think Elmax is the toughest stainless steel available. Bohler Uddeholm testing confirms this. The big question with Elmax is do you want it gorilla proof tough or just tough? I'm personally will to give up some toughness to gain edge holding. This is why I prefer HRC 61-62. If your customer is going to be batoning the knife through frozen logs back it off to HRC 59.
 
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