Emerson Liner locks

[Dave Berzer]

I'm thinking about getting a cqc14 for a work knife(construction), and am a bit concerned about it having a liner lock. whats the overall opinion of Emersons liner locks?

Dave

 

[reconranger]

Personally, if I buy an expensive high quality knife it is for self-defense, and I don't use it for anything else. For work, I have a hundred cheaper knives that I don't care if I ruin....

 

[Ed T]

I think it would be fine. Most of your work will be cutting, right?

 

[MORIMOTOM]

I'm thinking about getting a cqc14 for a work knife(construction), and am a bit concerned about it having a liner lock. whats the overall opinion of Emersons liner locks?

Dave

what exactly is your concern? liner locks are very secure, and the emerson's are no exception.

i would suggest periodically checking the pivot screw. if the blade has some lateral play, a loose pivot screw is likely the culprit, and can also contribute to lock failure.

 

[TiNi]

whats the overall opinion of liner locks?
Dave

Possibly your question should be (as above).

If a liner concerns you get LockBack, Frame Lock or even a Small Fixed Blade, were spoilt for choice these days with Manufactuers, Materials and Price points.

Makes the decision that much harder.

Let us know how you get on with your choice

 

[Dave Berzer]

Personally, if I buy an expensive high quality knife it is for self-defense, and I don't use it for anything else. For work, I have a hundred cheaper knives that I don't care if I ruin....

Hopefully I'll never need the knife for self defense, and I have no intention of ruining it at work. I like to carry a quality piece and it will get normal EDC chores of cutting boxes, tapes, and any other cutting chore that requires a knife.

Dave

 

[Dave Berzer]

what exactly is your concern? liner locks are very secure, and the emerson's are no exception.

i would suggest periodically checking the pivot screw. if the blade has some lateral play, a loose pivot screw is likely the culprit, and can also contribute to lock failure.

I just read some posts about the greater potential of failure of liner locks over others. Probably doing more reading than I should I asked the question here because I never owned an Emerson. Emersons appear to be primarily liner locks, and have a reputation for strong quality folders. So who better to ask than loyal Emerson owners! Anyways the knife will get used daily doing normal, everyday knife cutting chores around the jobsite.

Thanks
Dave

 

[TiNi]

Can't go wrong with a HD-7 or a CQC-12 FRAME LOCK's.

Though the CQC-14 knife you mentioned in your first post is one sweet knife, especially with a custom kydex belt holster (i had one once made by Daniel Koster).

TiNi

 

[DaveReb]

I just got an Emerson CQC14, my first, and it is one sweet knife. The handle ergo's are spectacular, maybe the best I have handled.:thumbup: I'm not a huge fan of liner locks but the one on this knife moves into place smoothly, and seems to engage perfectly. There is absolutely zero blade play in any direction. I actually posted this knife on the trade forum yesterday, but have decided to remove it. The ergo's and blade length are perfect for me, and it should make a very nice EDC for work.

Dave

 

[longbow]

Don't worry about the strength of the liner locks. They will work well. Emersons are as good as anyone else's for that matter. I have 2 CQC14's and personally speaking the best handle ego's of any EKI I have owned. Use the snot out of it and if it breaks send it in to Emerson and they'll fix it, there warranty is second to none. keepem sharp

 

[STR]

I would suggest taking it slow until the lock moves in behind the blade better than most of them do when you first open it up and start using it. If the lock is barely engaging the blade at all, as many of them do and all four of mine have your fears are certainly justified. It may hold just fine but it will at least have more meat behind the blade once its broke in.

The 14 is one of my favorite handles of all time; as I do love the shape and Ernie's ergonomics but I've been wary of the liner lock also, so I'd have to say it depends on the type of uses you are planning for it. Many people are quite happy and content with the liner lock while others are running around with permanent nerve damage to their fingers from letting their guard down with one or using it the wrong way. I have more emails from end line users with complaints and concerns about this type lock than all the other style locks combined. In other words you are not alone with your feelings.

Regardless of what the 'in crowd' tells you, their beliefs are based on blind faith. These locks need to be used with caution when used hard where twisting and leveraged torques are applied to the handle. When you take what is essentially a gents liner lock, which is what that is at .050 thickness titanium, and you beef up the pivot to a nice bull size of a 1/4", beef up the stop to a bigger diameter of 3/16", give it a nice tactical look and feel, and some G10 black grippy handle scales and leave the lock alone with out making any changes to it its my opinion that the knife is nothing more than a sheep in wolfs clothing. Underneath its really still just a gents liner lock and it should always be treated as such. And I'll argue that to my grave.

STR

 

[longbow]

Any folder can be defeated no matter what the lock is made of or how thick it is. The weakness is at the pivot cause it isn't just one solid piece. If you use the knife as intended it should be alright and safe enough. I don't pry with any folder nor really twist with it. I know its limitations. A folder is made for cutting and thats it. Anyone tells ya different well I think that is just asking for trouble.

Good test is to stick the knife in a piece of wood pretty hard. I mean stab right into it. Tell me you can't feel that lock move or buckle slighty. Pull the knife out with downward force and see what happes and how the lock feels. Just use it for cutting and picking splinters out if need be and you should be fine. Just my opinion but no folder is a fixed blade not matter what anyone says. keepem sharp

 

[biogon]

As with any liner or frame lock, my opinion would be is to test it, and test it frequently.

I've posted a lot about this before.

-j

 

[DaveReb]

I would suggest taking it slow until the lock moves in behind the blade better than most of them do when you first open it up and start using it. If the lock is barely engaging the blade at all, as many of them do and all four of mine have your fears are certainly justified. It may hold just fine but it will at least have more meat behind the blade once its broke in.

The 14 is one of my favorite handles of all time; as I do love the shape and Ernie's ergonomics but I've been wary of the liner lock also, so I'd have to say it depends on the type of uses you are planning for it. Many people are quite happy and content with the liner lock while others are running around with permanent nerve damage to their fingers from letting their guard down with one or using it the wrong way. I have more emails from end line users with complaints and concerns about this type lock than all the other style locks combined. In other words you are not alone with your feelings.

Regardless of what the 'in crowd' tells you, their beliefs are based on blind faith. These locks need to be used with caution when used hard where twisting and leveraged torques are applied to the handle. When you take what is essentially a gents liner lock, which is what that is at .050 thickness titanium, and you beef up the pivot to a nice bull size of a 1/4", beef up the stop to a bigger diameter of 3/16", give it a nice tactical look and feel, and some G10 black grippy handle scales and leave the lock alone with out making any changes to it its my opinion that the knife is nothing more than a sheep in wolfs clothing. Underneath its really still just a gents liner lock and it should always be treated as such. And I'll argue that to my grave.

STR

Right now I'd say the liner is engaging ~80-90% of the lockface, and does this quite smoothly.

I'm not rough on my knives as I have other tools for prying, and twisting, so I'm not really concerned about torquing and twisting the blade. The worst I would probably do to the knife is get it full of dirt or mud...which I'm hoping I'll have enough sense to clean it thoroughly before using it again.
While I feel the lock is pretty secure as it is, I am considering sending it to you to have a framelock conversion done to it. I noticed you have another 14 in line for a conversion.. maybe I can get mine to you at the same time you start this other one...while your tooled up for 14's. I also would like the wave removed from mine, as this is a work knife and not for self defense ,I don't need the blade opened everytime I take it out of my pocket.

dave

 

[biogon]

To add to the words of my esteemed colleague STR:

Linerlocks doesn't have to fail under twisting or prying -- the lockface can just be ground in a way that spine-directed pressure will cause the lock to slip off the engagement surface.

Pushing and tapping on the spine in a fashion that might occur to you in regular use can sometimes make them fail on their own, in an inopportune situation.

My old chestnut that I always mention is that I was using a linerlock in a crowded space once and inadvertently hit the spine on a stud in getting it out of the space, and the lock failed. Didn't hit my fingers though, since it was such a light hit.

-j

 

[STR]

Right now I'd say the liner is engaging ~80-90% of the lockface, and does this quite smoothly.

I'm not rough on my knives as I have other tools for prying, and twisting, so I'm not really concerned about torquing and twisting the blade. The worst I would probably do to the knife is get it full of dirt or mud...which I'm hoping I'll have enough sense to clean it thoroughly before using it again.
While I feel the lock is pretty secure as it is, I am considering sending it to you to have a framelock conversion done to it. I noticed you have another 14 in line for a conversion.. maybe I can get mine to you at the same time you start this other one...while your tooled up for 14's. I also would like the wave removed from mine, as this is a work knife and not for self defense ,I don't need the blade opened everytime I take it out of my pocket.

dave

I'm going to be into next year before I can get to that 14 but you are welcome to send yours. If I take off the Wave I'd have to bead blast the whole blade to make it blend and look right. I've done it before actually and have one 14 of my own with the Wave removed from it.

Its not the twisting of the blade that is the concern. Its the sideways torques bending and flexing the liners in conjunction with twists that can make the lock slide off the contact. Its similar to the same type movements assosciated with simply cutting down a cardboard box where the blade gets dull, binds some and you twist it to make it free up. These movements have been reported far too many times to be conicidence and when testing it out you can make a surprising number of locks of this type fail if they have sufficient length to provide enough leverage and the liners are thin enough to flex. Even on many I've tested that didn't fail it was easily seen to be able to make the locks move back and forth which is scary enough even when they hold.

STR

 

[Dave Berzer]

Well thanks for all the advice, but I think I'll pass on an Emerson, I'm going to steer away from a liner lock. The Framelocks Emerson has really don't appeal too me, I don't care for the Tanto Blade of the HD7, and the blade length of the HD12. What really appealed to me about the 14 is the blade length, because I really don't need a longer blade, with the full sized handle. I just can't see spending 150 bucks on a knife with an inferior lock.

Thanks
Dave

 

[SIFU1A]

I would suggest taking it slow until the lock moves in behind the blade better than most of them do when you first open it up and start using it. If the lock is barely engaging the blade at all, as many of them do and all four of mine have your fears are certainly justified. It may hold just fine but it will at least have more meat behind the blade once its broke in.

The 14 is one of my favorite handles of all time; as I do love the shape and Ernie's ergonomics but I've been wary of the liner lock also, so I'd have to say it depends on the type of uses you are planning for it. Many people are quite happy and content with the liner lock while others are running around with permanent nerve damage to their fingers from letting their guard down with one or using it the wrong way. I have more emails from end line users with complaints and concerns about this type lock than all the other style locks combined. In other words you are not alone with your feelings.

Regardless of what the 'in crowd' tells you, their beliefs are based on blind faith. These locks need to be used with caution when used hard where twisting and leveraged torques are applied to the handle. When you take what is essentially a gents liner lock, which is what that is at .050 thickness titanium, and you beef up the pivot to a nice bull size of a 1/4", beef up the stop to a bigger diameter of 3/16", give it a nice tactical look and feel, and some G10 black grippy handle scales and leave the lock alone with out making any changes to it its my opinion that the knife is nothing more than a sheep in wolfs clothing. Underneath its really still just a gents liner lock and it should always be treated as such. And I'll argue that to my grave.

STR

i wonder if the fact that you mod EKI's to framelocks has any influence on your dislike of EKI liner locks?? could it be ya are drumming up business?? it makes ya wonder WTF doesnt it?????????

if ya dont like liner locks then dont get a LL EKI, however, EKI liner locks are no worse than any other liner lock, and i'll argue that to my grave also.

i have had dozens of EKI LL's andf have had probs with all of one in the LL dept. not bad for a gents knife imho.


this subject has been just beaten to death, for the 1st time in 7000+ post i will say "try the search function".

 

[STR]

It pains me to have to talk negatively about any company but its not just EKI so I am not talking about them so much as I am this lock type. Also, I did not bring up that I did those repairs or conversions so blaming me for drumming up business like that is just plain wrong. I answered the guys question after he brought it up with no prompting by me.

Any tactical liner lock sold in that thinness as a hard use folder is an accident waiting to happen and I've been saying that for a good while now on all forums and I'm not the only one that has said this and am actually one of the later ones to come to this conclusion. Frankly, I don't enjoy rebuilding Emerson folders so as for drumming up business, I'm not making money doing this and refer out as much as I take on. My income was in the dental business just as it was for my wife and we retired from that. I do this as a hobby and nothing more. My fees pay mostly for materials and shipping. No one doing this is making any money doing it. I barely pay my expenses in any given month doing what I do here to entertain my hobby.

Think what you want but I don't do this for the money and have no ulterior motive other than to answer questions and do what I love. I'd answer this question the same way even if I did not do this work. I know what I know and when someone posts a question I answer it to the best of my ability. But I should not even have to dignify that statement of yours with a response regarding drumming up business. The inventor of the liner lock knows its weaknesses and felt the need to create the LAWKs system which is readily available for EKI or other companies to use if they choose but they stand blind to the need even though the inventor knows its needed for those uses in the tacical market place as well as others. Reeve felt the need to add his own improvement and Ernie recognizes this as well as all the other companies and he even recognizes that the thicker liners are a vast improvement in any liner lock by doing them that way in his customs but they still insist on putting these less trustworthy examples in the hands of end line users in the productions rather than sell them what is more appropriate and more importanly safer and more reliable in the same uses.

When there is a better choice for the same money whether that choice be from Emerson or from another company it only makes sense to go with the better choice and that is all I am ever saying. I mean if this was a question about a guy asking if a Ford LTD would suffice to travel his dirt road with ruts and some deep pot holes everyday and there was a better choice in the SUV or Pick Up line would you think I have it out for the LTD just because one company wants to give it a black finish, some bigger ballon tires, and wider stance? No. I'd be saying the same thing on every forum about the LTD maybe doing some of that but that its still a passenger car underneath all the decieving garb and attire to make it look tough.

For what its worth I've been cussed before by guys like you and then years later got an email from them apologizing to me telling me how they should have listened to me or taken my advice because they ended up in the ER for serious injury by using their gents liner lock for a job it was never designed to handle.

I hear this crap about other locks failing and causing injury all the time from the pro liner lock crowd. But in truth you'd be hard pressed to find a testimony of all that many other lock types causing the injury and mistrust the liner lock has under its belt. These reports are real. They are here on this forum and others speaking of that search function you mention and they are elsewhere on the internet also although some sites seem to limit that kind of posting like this act of censoring posts eliminates the problem or concern. I've got news for you. Frame locks and thicker liner locks are prone to the same type movements during severe twisting torques but they are harder to make defeat due to the added rigidity in most cases and the frame lock is practically impossible to defeat when in the hand due to the nature of the hand support on the lock by physically blocking it from releasing. The forces involved in making a liner lock defeat are not all that complicated or hard to duplicate. I urge anyone that decides to use this type lock system as their choice for hard use to test it and know how it behaves. I believe you will thank me for this more often than cuss me or question my motives. I really do.

STR

 

[oupa]

I have known STR for a number of years and ever since I have known him he has had a beef with liner-locking knives.
He also does not need to drum up business.
At no time said that there was a problem only with EKI knives....he was referring to ALL liner-locks.
The knife under discussion just happens to be one by EKI.
I thought he was rather complimentary about the cgc14's looks etc.
Dirk