Emerson Liner locks

Thanks stranger.

Good to see you this fine morning.

Out of curiousity I've looked up my EKI work I have done from the first to the last. To date I have done 11 Emerson Frame lock conversions which puts them at the few and far between type work I do when you look at all the Spyderco lockbacks and other work like pocket clips that I cover. To date I've charged a grand total of $1286 for the EKI conversions based on my log entries. This equals out to an average of like $116 per folder when divided out which barely covers what I use in materials. Some of these were given away to soldiers in Iraq by the way. Only recently at the urging of my wife, no scratch that and make that bickering really instead of urging,, but only recently have I begun to charge more to pay my MasterCard off everymonth instead of carrying it over where I end up with a service charge or having to dip into my retirement money market account to pay it off.

Not that this is anyones business but just FYI.

STR
 
Man, I hope that 'Knifie" goes with a fixed blade now. Hell, you got me think'n about it!
Lycosa
 
Again it doesn't mean you shouldn't use them or that you should not like or even love them. Just be aware of the nature of the animal you are dealing with. The car example is a good one. If you look at the liner lock symbolically as the basic transportation two wheel drive car or ok, lets say a two wheel drive pick up truck and ask yourself can it do some off roading or drift into some harder use terrain now and then?? Well sure, and people do but no one argues that it will take its toll faster on that type vehicle sooner and be harder on it. However if you want to do it you stick a load of wood in the bed, or some sand and it helps it get additional traction for a job it maybe wasn't really cut out for but can be made to do. Ernie did that symbolically and so have many others with their beefier hardware or stronger slab handles of a new age synthetic to step it up a notch. We can call those a step up from the F100 pick up to the F250 or F350 if you like but its still a two wheel drive truck. If you really want the best one for the job step up to the frame lock or the axis lock or a heavier duty lockback and do some four wheeling in something designed to handle the job that will hold up better, be more reliable and most importantly take you from point a to point b without injury or as much to worry about. In other words get the 4x4.

Now of course Murphy's law dicatates that having a 4x4 just means when you do get stuck you'll just be in a bigger mess when you do and maybe this is true but fortunately for us with talking about knives then you go fixed blade for dealing with the real deal mess.

Liner locks are fine. Hell I just traded for one the other day and buy them. I am just stressing to know the nature of the knife you have in hand and nothing more.

STR
 
SIFU1A said:
i wonder if the fact that you mod EKI's to framelocks has any influence on your dislike of EKI liner locks?? could it be ya are drumming up business?? it makes ya wonder WTF doesnt it?????????
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wow.....what an ignorant comment. What makes even more ignorant is who you actually accused.
 
http://www.knives.pl/forum/trident-knives-forum/folder-trident-knives.45.html

I hope it's OK if I post this. It's from the owner of crusader forge, discussing why he used liner locks, initially, over back-locks on his early folders. I think it's telling. Ultimately every lock style has it's pros and cons, I think. FWIW I've never had an Emerson liner lock "Fail" per se, beyond not locking properly if I open the blade with too much inertia, which has also happened to me with Axis locks, and a Gen 4 Endura. Once locked, they seem to stay locked just fine. That said, one day when I'm wealthy, I'll send my cqc-10 over to STR so he can add a little more titanium to it. :)
 
Guys and girls. Have there really been that many liner-lock failures? I thought the liner-lock was much stronger. If one puts a finger over the liner, won't that hold it in place during serious cutting?
Lycosa
 
Yes; no; are you serious? Maybe in a framelock you can gorilla-grip it, but not on a linerlock.

:)

-j
 
Biogon,
You know, after read'n this thread, I'm glad I went to frame-locks a while ago. I really had no idea about the liner-lock weakness.Another reason I like BF. Thanks.
Lycosa
 
I have learned more about Liner Locks From STR than any one else!!!!If this man says something about knives you can be sure he is right. Until I read his post on spine whacking to test the security of the Liner Lock I thought it was a good way to check for a good lock up. Boy, was I wrong. STR is an honorable man and he has an passion for knives as most of us knife nuts do. He is not criticizing Emerson Knives just the weakness of too many Liner locks. Most major knife companies don't use a thick enough liner. My choice is frame locks and axis locks. Oh, yeah I have a frame lock by STR that I would trust completely!
RKH
 
Liner locks are plenty strong when they stay on the contact. That video of the guy showing his lock all twisted is fine that it did its job. Idealy that is a good lock that did what its suppose to do. Not all pan out that way though. I've done that type testing too. So has Cliff Stamp, Joe Talmedge and others that have tested them.

Believe me I understand the anger generated by hearing these things about liner locks. When I first read Joe's posts saying such things I was furious. In fact I burned the bridge with him I think from that day on due to how I got with him. You see I didn't believe it! I knew the liner lock was great and nothing convinced me otherwise until I tested out the theories the way Cliff described to me and you know what? To my complete dismay they were right! I cussed a lot that day because I found that knives I had owned for years were not very reliable at all.

In my own testing of knives I bought with my own money to basically ruin I found right quick that about 1 in maybe 5 such liner locks will stay on the contact long enough to end up like that knife in the picture where it stayed put and bent in instead of just allowing the lock to slide right off the contact. When it collapsed in on itself like this it was ruined. This is how I first started doing frame lock conversions by the way. I had no choice if I wanted to use the knives I spent my hard earned money on purchasing.

And yeah it is true that when the lock stays put and defeats on this style lock the defeat is not the most catastrophic failure one can see but that is a big "IF" as to how long the lock will stay on the contact before the pressure snaps it off there so fast that it fails quite suddenly and just as bad as any lockback that has the contact of either the blade or the lockbar contact shear off or pop out from chipping and such under stress. Also straight forces down like those applied in that vice or even with just dead weight are not fair representations for the kinds of lateral and twisting torques the human hand can generate in use along with that same amount of weight downward so its not really showing anything but the straight on dead weight strength of the lock and how well the lock will stay on the contact from those forces straight on alone. With the liner lock you really need to take into account the lateral pressures which don't affect such locks as the axis or lockback at all the same way for catastrophy.

Its for this reason of unpredictability that I much prefer the frame lock or a heavy duty lockback for harder uses. If it takes a winch to snap the lock its a darn strong lock folks there is no question. But again to speak of the cardboard box cutting. When you are cutting down a box, and hit a corner where you are into double thickness cardboard you get snagged up and especially with the knife dull. So long as you keep those forces straight down or straight up if the lock up is good you should be fine. At least thats what you hope, but when you do this kind of cutting you twist, and tweak the body sideways as well as up and down. That test in the post on that foreign lanquage forum is great for just the one force not all three.

Its hit or miss with lock contacts of this type. The maker of that knife tested obviously makes a good contact or at least did on that one. As Joe has said and also proven in his own testing though, there is no way to predict how reliable the lock will remain. He has said numerous times how locks did great and suddenly failed only to be seemigly good again. Of course I'm paraphrasing. Point is you should be cautious when getting rough with it because you just never know. Hate me if you must but thats what I see also in the characteristics of this lock type.

Believe me I get intimate with these knives I evaluate and there isn't much I miss usually. I'm not bragging on this its just the fact. I see things in five minutes other folks don't see after owning it for years and I've always zeroed in like that. I think that is one of the reasons Kabar and Kershaw decided to use me for checking their products. I could get into serious detail about what I see regarding the pitch angle variances from knives that are the same model from company to company, and much more if I was so inclined.


STR
 
I have learned for from read the Blade Forum post that I have reading any Knife Magazine. I have a question, what do you guys consider a better lock than the liner lock. I have never had on fail, but I handle them all with care. Thanks
 
I have nothing against a frame lock at all and carry them quite frequently. The Axis lock is showing promise as perhaps one of the greatest innovations of our time and there are some Spyderco locks that are very well executed but I have not quite taken to them like the above locks.

However, the frame lock is perhaps the least problematic of about all lock types when done right. Any lock can give you crap now and then but the frame lock is so simple with less moving parts, and beefy enough to wear, designed so its reliable due to the nature of how you can support it physically with your fingers and stronger than the average man so overall its plenty of all the right stuff to come together for a great lock. Chris Reeve outdid himself with his creation there and his improvement of Walker/Lakes design. The lockback is a fine lock when its done right but the problem for most folks is they can't tell if it is or not really and just have to hope there is plenty of contact to make it a good one. Without being able to examine it though this is a matter of blind trust so its iffy for some unless the knife comes apart by a screw construction so you can really check it out.

At least with a frame lock you can tell at a glance if the lock up is stable. Still with that said, I've always loved lockbacks best.

STR
 
morrowj_98 said:
wow.....what an ignorant comment. What makes even more ignorant is who you actually accused.
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hey, it does make me wonder, sorry if i offended lol.

when one person has such a dislike of liner locks, but loves EKI, & implies a framelock EKI is the ultimate (when he does the conversion), after seeing this for months, i am gonna think what i think, & thats the way it is, sorry.

imho his opinions on EKI LL's should be taken with a grain of salt, perhaps.
 
after reflecting and considering if i had spoken too harshly, & looking thru a few threads, i simply still wonder WTF, STR speaks like EKI locks are crap, not even good enough for casual use, while in reality tens of thousands EKI locks work for yrs with not one problem, with there thousands of satisfied customers. would i prefer all EKI's to be framelocks?? well sure. are EKI's crap if they arent framelocks?? of course not.

perhaps if he didnt post so vehemently about the issue i wouldnt feel that way.

but imho its wrong to dis a whole brand of knives which imho have as good a liner lock as anyone does, and to act as if every single EKI LL ever made is a walking time bomb ready to cut your finger off with out a framelock conversion, when the disser is one of the folks doing the conversion, it just doesnt smell right to me.

so sorry if i offendeed anyone, i am sure STR is a great guy, who does great work, but i cant take him serious on this issue any more, sorry.
 
I can't speak for STR, but I will speak for myself.

I've had a linerlock fail in normal use.
I've had a framelock fail in normal use.

I've never had an Emerson's linerlock fail in normal use, but I have been able to make them fail in light testing. I was just lucky I wasn't using it at the time.

The problem is the "a whole brand of knives imho which have as good as a liner lock as anyone does" statement.

The linerlock (and framelock) as a CLASS is just likely to fail without warning.

It's not like a lockback, which, if you keep it maintained (the slot free of debris), very rarely fails in normal use. Maybe it abruptly fails under very high loads, whereas the linerlock gracefully fails, but the linerlock's failure mode occurs unpredictably.

It works great until one day, out of the blue, it slips and fails with no warning, even if you maintain it.

And that's why I don't like it.

-j
 
SIFU1A said:
after reflecting and considering if i had spoken too harshly, & looking thru a few threads, i simply still wonder WTF, STR speaks like EKI locks are crap, not even good enough for casual use, while in reality tens of thousands EKI locks work for yrs with not one problem, with there thousands of satisfied customers. would i prefer all EKI's to be framelocks?? well sure. are EKI's crap if they arent framelocks?? of course not.

perhaps if he didnt post so vehemently about the issue i wouldnt feel that way.

but imho its wrong to dis a whole brand of knives which imho have as good a liner lock as anyone does, and to act as if every single EKI LL ever made is a walking time bomb ready to cut your finger off with out a framelock conversion, when the disser is one of the folks doing the conversion, it just doesnt smell right to me.

so sorry if i offendeed anyone, i am sure STR is a great guy, who does great work, but i cant take him serious on this issue any more, sorry.
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Take what I say as my opinion. You can take it or leave it. I don't have an opinion about what you do with my statements, but stop singling out EKI like thats all I'm talking about. I talk in general terms about the lock types themselves unless someone asks me specifically about a company. I don't trust much of any of them but some are better than others but thats not the point here. The point is for some uses a liner lock can be made to work but is not in my opinion the best choice of those available. I get knives in the mail most everyday. Yesterday I posted a Military with a note from the owner that the lock was bad. I guess I'm just lucky it wasn't an Emerson or I'd just look that much worse to you. I guess I better watch out how I eval this Millie since I've turned those into frame locks too.:jerkit:

Look at the lock pictured in this thread. That is typical I think for a lot of companies. Does it even begin to look like its trustworthy yet to anyone? It looks about like my own 14s did when new to be honest and everyone of those locks defeated with simple taps to the tip of the blade. I dare the guy that owns that knife to tap it on a board locked open as it is. I'd guess looking at it that he'll be lucky if it doesn't defeat after 1 to 5 taps just like mine do and he won't have to whack it either. If you hit it hard enough to make the blade close as it sits in that picture I have no doubt that it will snap shut. But you can lightly tap it and it will likely defeat and rotate the blade about 1/3rd to 1/2 of the way back around based on the ones I've owned. If you trust that lock I guess you value your fingers less than I do and/or you carry a few more bandaids in your wallet than I do because that looks like a lock not quite broken in yet to me that needs to be used light until its tested out and the lock moves in where it mates to the contact better. I said they were to be used with caution and warned those using them hard to know the knife in their hand and how it behaves. Looking at this lock pictured and knowing from what I see daily just how typical this is and how easily it is sometimes to make a lock that looks that precarious defeat from simple spine pressure or taps from knives across the board in the industry I think thats good advice. If you don't then good luck with that.

STR
 
its one thing to have an opinion, quite another imho to jump in on every single thread about EKI LL's with both feet with tails of a "great design" with only one "flaw" which guess who can fix.

that folks would send someone who does framelock conversions/repairs locks knives with funky locks/locks "fixing" to fail/etc for some reason doesnt suprise me.

do some LL's have probs?? yes. do EKI LL's fail more than say BM or spyderco? nope. are some of the very best fighting folding knives on the planet liner locks? uh huh. pat crawford, ernie emerson, bob T, all very respected custom smiths and virtually every single thing they make is a LL. maybe ya should call or email them and give 'em some input on there choice of locks, i am certain they would be interested in your opinions.

again, would i prefer all folders be framelock vs LL?? sure. do i really think ernie or pat or bob really give a rat pellet what i think?? nope. is there anything fundementally wrong with a EKI LL? no, nothing thats not wrong with a spyderco/BM/MT/"fill in the blank/ LL? can a LL fail? sure. can a LL go for yrs, even on a waved knife with no problems at all? yep. will an EKI work fine for most folks regardless of there intended use? yes, hey he sells a helluva lot of them to all have crappy locks, doesnt he?

point being it looks tacky to me to go on& on about EKI LL"s at every op which presents itself, speak of excellent design, etc, with the only flaw being the LL which you, luckily, can fix for them. sorry, to me, it just does and it always will, we can go back/forth from now till gabriel blows his horn, and i am gonna wonder WTF.

honestly, we arent far apart on opinion about most stuff(hey, you arent a sooner fan, are ya lol????), and i think ya do great work, if i wanted to do a conversion on an EKI you would be one of 2 or 3 i would consider, but i think ya need to give the EKI LL issue a break, it just looks tacky, same thing if tom krein jumped in on every single thread about chisel grinds sucking, (which he doesnt) it just looks tacky and can give the impression of impropriety even if none is intended, like ya are "drummin up" biz, which in the appropriate place is cool with me, not a prob, but imho the appropriate place is not every last EKI LL viability thread. give it a break, let folks do the search thing vs jumping in both bbls blasting on every single thread like that, or email 'em with your info, it would imho look a lot more civil.
 
STR, I admit I prefer framelocks. I admit I prefer thicker liners on my Emersons (altho' I've never had the thin liners fail - I don't use them so hard, or twist them with sufficient torque either). However, I think a well made liner lock is strong, maybe not as strong as a thick framelock but is still plenty strong. Kit Carson's liners aren't that thick. Allen Elishewitz liners are 0.055". No one has complained that they've failed, altho I doubt they've used them as hard as production knives (maybe?).

But...as to the integrity of Emerson's liner locks, I definitely respect everyone's views. If you experience failure, I urge you to contact Ernie and tell him about it. Seriously. I don't think Ernie is the kind of guy who advertises that his knives are tough if they weren't good enough for the job. I don't think he could live with himself if he were pulling wool over our eyes. Please do give him a call....I think he'd really appreciate your input.
 
SIFU1A said:
its one thing to have an opinion, quite another imho to jump in on every single thread about EKI LL's with both feet with tails of a "great design" with only one "flaw" which guess who can fix.

that folks would send someone who does framelock conversions/repairs locks knives with funky locks/locks "fixing" to fail/etc for some reason doesnt suprise me.

do some LL's have probs?? yes. do EKI LL's fail more than say BM or spyderco? nope. are some of the very best fighting folding knives on the planet liner locks? uh huh. pat crawford, ernie emerson, bob T, all very respected custom smiths and virtually every single thing they make is a LL. maybe ya should call or email them and give 'em some input on there choice of locks, i am certain they would be interested in your opinions.

again, would i prefer all folders be framelock vs LL?? sure. do i really think ernie or pat or bob really give a rat pellet what i think?? nope. is there anything fundementally wrong with a EKI LL? no, nothing thats not wrong with a spyderco/BM/MT/"fill in the blank/ LL? can a LL fail? sure. can a LL go for yrs, even on a waved knife with no problems at all? yep. will an EKI work fine for most folks regardless of there intended use? yes, hey he sells a helluva lot of them to all have crappy locks, doesnt he?

point being it looks tacky to me to go on& on about EKI LL"s at every op which presents itself, speak of excellent design, etc, with the only flaw being the LL which you, luckily, can fix for them. sorry, to me, it just does and it always will, we can go back/forth from now till gabriel blows his horn, and i am gonna wonder WTF.

honestly, we arent far apart on opinion about most stuff(hey, you arent a sooner fan, are ya lol????), and i think ya do great work, if i wanted to do a conversion on an EKI you would be one of 2 or 3 i would consider, but i think ya need to give the EKI LL issue a break, it just looks tacky, same thing if tom krein jumped in on every single thread about chisel grinds sucking, (which he doesnt) it just looks tacky and can give the impression of impropriety even if none is intended, like ya are "drummin up" biz, which in the appropriate place is cool with me, not a prob, but imho the appropriate place is not every last EKI LL viability thread. give it a break, let folks do the search thing vs jumping in both bbls blasting on every single thread like that, or email 'em with your info, it would imho look a lot more civil.
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First off. No I am not a Sooner fan. ;)

Secondly. I think you are jumping to a bit of a conclusion because there are certainly threads here I did not respond to. And to be perfectly honest I had no intention of responding to this one until I got a third contact via email from folks that are also members here pointing out that someone needed a question answered alerting me to the thread here by Dave. Honestly I just got a link and replied to it by clicking it and came directly to it. I didn't know where it was taking me at first or realize until that first time I checked it out after the first contact.

You make is sound like all I do is convert knives to frame locks like it is some big business or something when in fact the ones I've done for members have uually had absolutely nothing to do with things I said but conclusions they already reached on their own, from their own experiences with their knives and also many times I converted knives that had already used up their usuable service life as a liner lock that the owners were attached to and wanted to continue to use.

90% of the failures that occur with these liner locking knives are due to how they are shipped out when they are brand spanken new. You think I'm wrong? Test yours with some taps and some spine pressure each time you open them new right out of the box rather than just blindly trust them and see for yourself just how many shock you with a sudden defeat of the lock.

You also act as if you just know I don't speak with any of the makers you name off. Believe me they all know who I am and they have exchanged conversations with me and I have worked on countless knives by their hands as well as their companies when they have been mailed to me by the owners of them. I am not talking about strength. I am not debating the strength of one lock or another. We are talking solely about reliability here. Particularly the reliability of a new lock with a lock sitting precariously like that one pictured here in this thread by someone else. I believe the owner of that knife is thankful for my replies here. If you are not, sorry. But just because you don't like reading what I type here on this thread or just because you think I have some ulterior motive when I have plainly stated I do not is no reason to continue to attack my integrity or motives and that is the way it is beginning to come across to more than just myself because I've been getting contacts about it.

Guys like you are no different than I was a few years ago. I fought hard with Joe Talmege over much of this same stuff and in the end I learned the hard way that he was right all along. If I pop in and give my two cents worth on a thread where people ask me to reply you are welcome to your opinion. But stop attacking me personally with all this fishy tacky nonsense. I am busier than I want to be and as I said I do not in the least enjoy doing these Emerson frame lock conversions.

For what its worth. The 14 I have here now is from my best friend Friz the guy that came up with the idea for this folder with Ernie in the first place and if you knew how I tried to talk him out of having me do this for him you'd see that I don't try to draw these in to my bench and don't particularly like cutting titanium this thick or grinding on it to make it to shape at all. But whatever. I'm done here.

Also, for whatever its worth to you, your thoughts have been dwelled on here by me and I will take them to heart and make an effort in the future to be more careful about the way I may come across. I am not going to get all defensive about your take or get hot or angry about it because there is nothing to defend here but your point is taken and I can see how you may be inclined to wonder. With that said though I have no intention of trying to stir up business when I come to answer a post.

If actions speak louder than words I feel I've been very consistant here and I like to think I have made a pretty good reputation for doing what I say I will do usually when I say I will do it and not taking sides. What I have said here in these EKI forums is no different than anything I posted on this topic on the Spyderco forums, or on the Kershaw forums or anywhere else in General or Knife reviews across the board from my point of view. I do however find it interesting that its only been on this and one other forum (Strider) when I had access to it that people get so riled up about it.

So, again I hope you will take what I am saying here in this last paragraph to heart and realize I learn and grow on these forums like anyone else does. Each day I pick up something new which is why I love it here. When I have changed a view its directly related to this constant learning and growing in the exchanges here. I thank you for your opinion but you've made your point. As you said it best. Give it a rest now:thumbup:.

Oh and Dave my offer to you on my forum regarding that knife still stands. Good luck with your trade.

STR
 
It seems some folks have a devotion to brand bordering on the religious. It APPEARS that the Emerson crowd revels in the fact they are listed as "hard use" knives, so anything perceived as attacking their uber toughness is derided.
The limitations of liner locks is evident in the fact that Emerson makes some hefty frame locks. They would not do this if liner locks fit all needs.
If you use your knife in a safe, always against the cutting edge manner, then LL are just fine. I've had my LL hold up against accidental bumps(some hard) to the spine edge. I've also seen them fail with light taps on a couple of different brands(I don't yet have an Emerson, so I can't comment on them specifically).
I like LL just fine, and a well executed one should hold up to most tasks okay. That said, they are by no means the toughest lock, and their variable reliability stems from the fact that they are HARD to make really well. Some will slip by the inspection process, but that's why checking your tools and a company with good warranty is a good idea.
 
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