Emerson Liner locks

Great post stabman. This thread has gone BONKERS!!! I hope it flames out.
Lycosa
 
stabman said:
It seems some folks have a devotion to brand bordering on the religious. It APPEARS that the Emerson crowd revels in the fact they are listed as "hard use" knives, so anything perceived as attacking their uber toughness is derided.
The limitations of liner locks is evident in the fact that Emerson makes some hefty frame locks. They would not do this if liner locks fit all needs.
If you use your knife in a safe, always against the cutting edge manner, then LL are just fine. I've had my LL hold up against accidental bumps(some hard) to the spine edge. I've also seen them fail with light taps on a couple of different brands(I don't yet have an Emerson, so I can't comment on them specifically).
I like LL just fine, and a well executed one should hold up to most tasks okay. That said, they are by no means the toughest lock, and their variable reliability stems from the fact that they are HARD to make really well. Some will slip by the inspection process, but that's why checking your tools and a company with good warranty is a good idea.
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if ya think this emerson crowd is devoted give me a email & i'll send ya a link to 1 which makes this crowd looks tame.

Cvettercr1@aol.com

FWIW i couldnt care less about EKI's advertising, that has absolutlely "0" to do with this, & imho ernie didnt come out with framelocks due to some weakness in his LL's.

if ya read my posts ya should be able to understand my issue.

& let me get this straight, you dont even own an EKI, correct??

also the fact that folks may react defensively about EKI shouldnt be a big suprise, this is the emerson forum, after all.
 
STR said:
First off. No I am not a Sooner fan. ;)

Secondly. I think you are jumping to a bit of a conclusion because there are certainly threads here I did not respond to. And to be perfectly honest I had no intention of repsponding to this one until I got a third contact via email from folks that are also members here pointing out that someone needed a question answered alerting me to the thread here by Dave. Honestly I just got a link and replied to it by clicking it and came directly to it. I didn't know where it was taking me at first or realize until that first time I checked it out after the first contact.

You make is sound like all I do is convert knives to frame locks like it is some big business or something when in fact the ones I've done for members have uually had absolutely nothing to do with things I said but conclusions they already reached on their own, from their own experiences with their knives and also many times I converted knives that had already used up their usuable service life as a liner lock that the owners were attached to and wanted to continue to use.

90% of the failures that occur with these liner locking knives are due to how they are shipped out when they are brand spanken new. You think I'm wrong? Test yours with some taps and some spine pressure each time you open them new right out of the box rather than just blindly trust them and see for yourself just how many shock you with a sudden defeat of the lock.

You also act as if you just know I don't speak with any of the makers you name off. Believe me they all know who I am and they have exchanged conversations with me and I have worked on countless knives by their hands as well as their companies when they have been mailed to me by the owners of them. I am not talking about strength. I am not debating the strength of one lock or another. We are talking solely about reliability here. Particularly the reliability of a new lock with a lock sitting precariously like that one pictured here in this thread by someone else. I believe the owner of that knife is thankful for my replies here. If you are not, sorry. But just because you don't like reading what I type here on this thread or just because you think I have some ulterior motive when I have plainly stated I do not is no reason to continue to attack my integrity or motives and that is the way it is beginning to come across to more than just myself because I've been getting contacts about it.

Guys like you are no different than I was a few years ago. I fought hard with Joe Talmege over much of this same stuff and in the end I learned the hard way that he was right all along. If I pop in and give my two cents worth on a thread where people ask me to reply you are welcome to your opinion. But stop attacking me personally with all this fishy tacky nonsense. I am busier than I want to be and as I said I do not in the least enjoy doing these Emerson frame lock conversions.

For what its worth. The 14 I have here now is from my best friend Friz the guy that came up with the idea for this folder with Ernie in the first place and if you knew how I tried to talk him out of having me do this for him you'd see that I don't try to draw these in to my bench and don't particularly like cutting titanium this thick or grinding on it to make it to shape at all. But whatever. I'm done here.

Also, for whatever its worth to you, your thoughts have been dwelled on here by me and I will take them to heart and make an effort in the future to be more careful about the way I may come across. I am not going to get all defensive about your take or get hot or angry about it because there is nothing to defend here but your point is taken and I can see how you may be inclined to wonder. With that said though I have no intention of trying to stir up business when I come to answer a post.

If actions speak louder than words I feel I've been very consistant here and I like to think I have made a pretty good reputation for doing what I say I will do usually when I say I will do it and not taking sides. What I have said here in these EKI forums is no different than anything I posted on this topic on the Spyderco forums, or on the Kershaw forums or anywhere else in General or Knife reviews across the board from my point of view. I do however find it interesting that its only been on this and one other forum (Strider) when I had access to it that people get so riled up about it.

So, again I hope you will take what I am saying here in this last paragraph to heart and realize I learn and grow on these forums like anyone else does. Each day I pick up something new which is why I love it here. When I have changed a view its directly related to this constant learning and growing in the exchanges here. I thank you for your opinion but you've made your point. As you said it best. Give it a rest now:thumbup:.

Oh and Dave my offer to you on my forum regarding that knife still stands. Good luck with your trade.

STR
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sounds ok to me,
 
Here is my 2 cents worth in regards to the liner lock. Many knifemakers are still usiing it so there must be something good about it. I like Emerson knives and will not fear using them in any way that is within reason; not pryiing or using it as a step or any way it was not intended for. Imho, the reason the liner problems may be the material being used. In our quest to get a strong and light folder, titanium is being used and it tends to bend and flex more duriing pressure as heat-treated stainless steel won't. I know that heat-treating the steel for the liners may be more time-consuming but it may a big difference. I have seen the difference between the two and will opt for heat-treated liners anyday over titanium. I even think Emerson is going back to the stainless steel liner due the cost of titaniium is so high and will use only titanium in his customes. Lastly, make them bigger and that may help as well.


:jerkit:
 
I wouldn't consider anything with a liner lock to be a hard-use knife, no matter what they're made of. They're too flimsy to make me feel secure with them, especially given all the alternatives. Personally, I swear by the integral lock; massive mating surfaces and certifiably (not to mention exponentially) greater strength, but with the same ergonomics as the liner. Emmerson makes a few good framelock knives; I'd check them out first if you're looking for a knife you can stake your life on.
 
Choose the knife for the job at hand. 99% of my cutting jobs could be done with a slipjoint. I carried a CQC-7B while in the Army and encountered no issues. Granted I have since beefed up the thickness of the liners & changed the scales (thanks Phil), but it is still going strong. I do consider my CQC-12 & SnG to be a stronger knife due to the framelock. I'm hoping to get a HD-7 down the road, but till then my CQC-7B will do fine.
 
This is true, Halfneck, you should definitely pick the right knife for the job. I'm assuming that by considering the purchase such a reputed and prestigious knife as an Emmerson, the job you intend to do is very tough indeed. Therefore, I would steer one away from linerlocks. The leafspring-based locks are all very ergonomic, hence their popularity, but the frame-based lock outweighs the liner-based many times on terms of sheer tenacity.
 
spyken said:
But...as to the integrity of Emerson's liner locks, I definitely respect everyone's views. If you experience failure, I urge you to contact Ernie and tell him about it. Seriously. I don't think Ernie is the kind of guy who advertises that his knives are tough if they weren't good enough for the job. I don't think he could live with himself if he were pulling wool over our eyes. Please do give him a call....I think he'd really appreciate your input.
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I've read up on some of STR's posts, and he has repeatedly contacted ernie over the years about this liner lock problem, and still nothing has been done to fix it. He even mentions how ernie uses thicker liners on his customs which could be seen as even the maker thinking they are too thin.

Don't get me wrong, I love my emerson commander, but I wouldn't consider it a "tactical" knife just because it has a "wave" when I pull it out of my pocket. It makes a great outdoors knife, but I wouldn't run around trying to hammer or stab things with it. From years of being in scouts, I just automatically cut away from myself and that's that, but I would still feel better with a thicker lock or a more high tech one, for example, the Axis lock. Even with the LAWKS feature out there, I think it would be nice if ernie at least sold them to emerson owners as an extra feature to put on your knife.

I recently pulled my commander apart for a full cleaning (first time I've done this with this particular knife), and I was surprised at how thin the titanium liners are when the G10 isn't covering them up. This added to my worry of liner lock knives, especially this one since it is a "hard use" knife. I wouldn't second guess the blade, handles, or liners, if there was a better lock to compensate for the "hard use" title.

I can understand that in a custom folding knife the liner lock is probably the easiest way to go, but not nearly the safest. Someone mentioned customs using a lot of liner locks, well that is probably your answer, it's easy!!! Even I could cut out a thin piece of titanium or steel and bend the locking piece into place, but it doesn't make it the best lock for the job.

Okay, I'm done ranting, if any of this was said over too many times then I apologize, just putting my opinion of the Liner locks from Emerson.
 
SIFU1A said:
if ya think this emerson crowd is devoted give me a email & i'll send ya a link to 1 which makes this crowd looks tame.

Cvettercr1@aol.com

FWIW i couldnt care less about EKI's advertising, that has absolutlely "0" to do with this, & imho ernie didnt come out with framelocks due to some weakness in his LL's.

& let me get this straight, you dont even own an EKI, correct??
also the fact that folks may react defensively about EKI shouldnt be a big suprise, this is the emerson forum, after all.
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Yeah, I don't own an Emerson, but I own many other liner locks, which are good because I got rid of the crummy ones.
I like liner locks, but the frame locks DO seem to be stronger; and even if they're not, they seem to be harder to screw-up in the execution.
But as for defensiveness, people should be going on the merits of the arguments, and the pros and cons of the specific thing under review, rather than feeling like their guru has been attacked. If someone was bashing the company, or Emerson himself, then defensiveness makes sense.
But this argument has been about the merits of liner locks themselves, and the difficulty in making them properly, NOT an attack on the company(so far as I can tell anyway).
If someone was saying the Emerson's lock failed more frequently than other companies, that would be cause for feeling defensive too, but I didn't see that in this thread.
Personally, I've yet to have even a cheap Chinese made frame-lock fail on me(although apparently others have). I'd just like to see more frame-locks offered by Emerson. I'd like to buy a Mini-Commander, or one of the other cool designs, but why not have more selection? He already makes some frame-locks, and more choice would probably get more sales.
I'd buy one, if it were the same cost as the liner-lock version.
 
^ I hear ya on that, I'd buy two more commanders if they were in frame locks, one to beat up, and one to compare my beatup knife to so I can tell what it used to look like :p.
 
I'm a fan of the integral lock, but I'm quite accustomed to the Sebenza. (I work in the industrial sector, so G-10 = bad idea) Most liner-locks aren't nearly as tough as Emmerson's; they can snap or just disengage a lot more easily. For this reason, I don't really feel comfortable using a liner-lock knife as a hard-use or self-defense knife, but if I had to stake my life on one, I would hope it were an Emmerson.
 
stabman said:
Yeah, I don't own an Emerson, but I own many other liner locks, which are good because I got rid of the crummy ones.
I like liner locks, but the frame locks DO seem to be stronger; and even if they're not, they seem to be harder to screw-up in the execution.
But as for defensiveness, people should be going on the merits of the arguments, and the pros and cons of the specific thing under review, rather than feeling like their guru has been attacked. If someone was bashing the company, or Emerson himself, then defensiveness makes sense.
But this argument has been about the merits of liner locks themselves, and the difficulty in making them properly, NOT an attack on the company(so far as I can tell anyway).
If someone was saying the Emerson's lock failed more frequently than other companies, that would be cause for feeling defensive too, but I didn't see that in this thread.
Personally, I've yet to have even a cheap Chinese made frame-lock fail on me(although apparently others have). I'd just like to see more frame-locks offered by Emerson. I'd like to buy a Mini-Commander, or one of the other cool designs, but why not have more selection? He already makes some frame-locks, and more choice would probably get more sales.
I'd buy one, if it were the same cost as the liner-lock version.
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+a frame lock is gonna be more expensive than a LL, plain & simple.

as far as the other i suggest ya go back and re-read my statements ya are not getting the point at all this has nothing to do with gurus being attacked or defending EKI per se, if thats what ya think the deal is, "wrong"..
 
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