Emerson Quality - I want to know the truth

The price thing should not be an issue. I'm sure it will bump it up but you know EKI has always asked a premium for their products. Many people wonder what the deal is when they first look them over and especially when they compare them to other USA made products for sometimes a fraction of the cost. Other companies can make the frame lock affordable and EKI can too if they want to. The CQC12 and HD7 sell fine and I don't hear too many arguing about the sticker price on them.

By the way, I'm not asking that the HD models take over with no more liner locks being available. I'd just like to see the option to go one or the other for those of us not interesed in the liner lock. For those that don't want to bite the bullet for a better built folder or those that like the liner lock and feel its fine the way it is they can still buy the other lesser priced model that way.

If I had to guess why they are not available I'd say Ernie waited so long to even introduce one HD model that it was probably more out of respect for his friend Chris Reeve who came up with the idea and concept of the thicker bare bones frame lock style integral design than it was anything else regarding costs. Well, time is ripe. Everyone and their brother from backyard makers to other production companies are currently making or offering frame locks now in both titanium and stainless so EKI jumping on the band wagon isn't going to mean a thing for anyone but the fans of EKI ergos. Chris has had nearly a 23 year head start now so I say its high time. No more excuses.

STR
 
I too have been caught up in the Emerson brand way back since 2000 but have never really had confidence in the liner-type lock design (whether EKI's or not). This has been a very informative thread and I truly learned a lot from the unbiased and truthful views.

I really do believe it can only contribute to the future design considerations.
 
Frame lock or liner lock .....Emerson makes a great knives. Just like any other consumer product you find what you like and don't like about any product. I have had a CQC-7 for years and have never had any issue with its lock failing or other.

While I have not been a big fan of any of Emersons more current creations...I doubt the QA has fallen that far off the mark. We'd be hearing about it left and right. Personally the only current offering I'd consider buying would be a HD-7.....and even then I find it typically over priced.
 
Bought a new cqc 12 from onestopknifeshop.com and I never had a problem with it in terms of quality. I love this knife and plan to pick up 1 or 2 more of these. Hopefully, I can get one customized and continue to EDC my current cqc12.
 
I have had an EKI bullnose karambit for all of 3 days and the lock just smoothed out. So I think that the quality is OK but not great. It by all means is not a hard use lock. Back in the day (other than customs and few others) though there were only lockbacks, liner locks, and very few frame locks. So back when he started with BM the liner lock was the best one hand use lock method for the price. Now with the Axis lock being IMHO, the hardest use lock out there, maybe he should pay some royalty's to BM and use it. Spyderco pays EKI for the wave so it can be done.
 
I personally love my Commander, the wave feature is awsome and I can't get away from the overall design. I do agree a lot with STR, I believe that there should be the optional frame lock designs for at least the popular sellers. I trust my commander to get through most tasks, except for any type of piercing. It would be nice to be able to fully trust a knife without the least bit of worry, and for $200+ msrp I would have expected this. My liner holds in place, but it does seem to bow when I apply pressure to the back of the blade. As stated by someone else, the commander is made for slashing, but for a tactical folder I would expect it to hold its own in close quarters. I can't say that I would trust the liner lock to do that, but I do trust in the 'name' on the blade for a quality product. The blade itself has never caused any problems and has held up for any task that I have used it for. The handle is also very nice and I just can't bring myself to carry anything else even if it has a safer lock than the commander.
 
SIFU1A said:
no way EKI goes to axis locks, that aint gonna happen.

frame lock, maybe.
Click to expand...

If somebody out there can make this thing with an axis lock please let me know. That would be awsome, invincible blade + invincible lock = Bad Ass Knife.
 
imho the axis isnt any better than a frame so if ya arent happy with liner locks why dont ya get a CQC12 or HD7?

why do ya think the axis is better than the frame? i have both and like i say i dont think one is any better than the other.

not that the axis is bad, it isnt, its one of the best locks around.

AFAIK no one on earth can /would make/convert a axis commander FWIW. if there is someone i have certainly never heard of it. maybe ya could get someone to do a one off custom, give it a try.

lot easier to get a '12 though.
 
frame lock can still disengage like a liner lock. although it is stronger than the liner lock it can still slip off the lock seat on the blade. The axis lock bar and or the blade would have to break to disengage the axis lock. The only other scenerio would be the omega springs would have to break (both of them). In that case you would feel the problem before you would put your fingers in a comprimising position.
 
really about the only con to an axis is the buttons stick out past the handle and MAYBE if ya move your hand a certain way in a SD situation it can be accidently released, ya can always grind the bottons down FWIW, some say its dbatable but i can see where it could conceivably happen i suppose.

even with 2 broken springs ya could push the bar up manually and lock it fairly well imho, axis are great locks.

but EKI isnt ever gonna have them lol.
 
I think the frame lock is one of the tops for reliability. The Axis is number one for strength and while up there for reliability I am not sure I'd say its going to beat the frame lock here. I know there have been times when using my BM HK14205 that I have pulled the buttons back in my grip during use when cutting down a cardboard box and although nothing happened this is not good in my opinion. For this reason I have to assume if it happened to me that it could happen to anyone else.

The Spyderco Dodo ball lock seems less likely for this to occur to me so I'd have to say its probably more reliable at least in my mind. And for that matter it would be just as strong or stronger with steel or titanium liners to back it up I think.

On Ernie ever going Axis. Hmmm. Don't hold your breath. He doesn't need the Axis lock and he certainly doesn't need anything from BenchMade. I think he has what he needs already. He just needs to get busy making it reality. I for one look forward to the first CQC14 frame lock from the factory and will be one of the first in line for one right behind my best friend Harry. :D

STR
 
M2HSSR-910SBK said:
frame lock can still disengage like a liner lock. although it is stronger than the liner lock it can still slip off the lock seat on the blade. The axis lock bar and or the blade would have to break to disengage the axis lock. The only other scenerio would be the omega springs would have to break (both of them). In that case you would feel the problem before you would put your fingers in a comprimising position.
Click to expand...


People always talk about the lock bar slipping off the tang, when discussing liner-locks... But I find this statement about the potential for failure in the Axis lock to be a little misleading. Wouldn't it be technically possible, if not in quite probable, for the axis to slip off the back edge of the tang, and allow the blade to close? Technically it's held by the exact same two forces as the liner's lock-bar... Friction against the tang, and spring force, (two relatively small omega springs, vs a much more substantial lock-bar's natural springy-ness...) I hope that's clear enough to understand my point. STR will probably have further light to shed on my above state hypothesis. Hm... maybe I should change my name to "Devil's Advocate"... :)
 
No need for a name change just yet. :D Can I elaborate? Well yeah. I really wonder how much you guys want to hear though because I know half of you wish I'd shut up. Truthfully though, shutting up about it does not change what we know about liner locks today compared to yesterdays news.

What you say is true to a point. But the main difference is the way that lateral stresses interact with the liner lock or the Axis lock, lock back or any other type locks. During use there is more than just up and down back and forth motions playing on the lock. There is also leveraged forces laterally which were never really tested in great depth until about 10 or 12 years ago to present.

Its these sideways forces in conjunction with just the right flex and twist often associated with such simple things as cutting down a cardboard box that defeat the liner locks catching end line users by surprise and which can be repeatedly demonstrated by the way. Now it is true that some feel the liner lock is the best because it can stand up ok and even do well for spine whacks and taps but this too is very unpredictable and it does not address the real weakness in liner locks which is the way they behave under lateral twisting torques.

You can spine whack a liner locking folder and make yourself feel better if you want and you may feel perfectly confident in it and note that it has never once failed. Many folks have testified to this and testers have noted it and spoke of how they then show it off to a guy to demonstrate just how well it does only to see it fail miserably for no apparent reason. We have numerous reports of liner locks never failing and then failing suddenly as well as liner locks that failed several times when first tested this way but never failed again. Liner locks and spine whacks are not a good way to really judge this lock and I don't like this test at all anyway really but do accept the tap to make sure the lock is functioning. How the sudden shock to the system is going to play out is something you cannot predict. I venture to say this is true with all locking folders though and not just the liner lock although the liner lock seems to suffer more from whacks and this type action than the axis lock does.

To get back to what testers have learned. It is true that when the liner lock first came out many thought it was the cats meow to answer our knife needs when it comes to a reliable everyday folder. Many jumped on the bandwagon making these in all configurations and yes it did ok for the technology and understanding of it at the time but as with anything we create from the first automobile to todays latest and greatest cars or with anything else, new updates and further refinement as well as further testing out of the products proves without much doubt at all the frame lock and the Axis lock are far superior to the liner lock in all the right ways.

Not only are these later updated more refined locks stronger but both are far more reliable. This is particularly true when used in hard tough use situations where the lateral stresses and twist actions easily defeat the liner lock. Frame locks are inherently more reliable as stated earlier in my previous posts. As I said then its because you can physically block the movement of the lock, but also the lock contact is wider so if there is ample lock width behind the blade to support it even if it did slide in the direction of release under the lateral stress there is a better chance the blade will still be secured open even if it did develop a tad of vertical play from the lock sliding temporarily toward release with that much lock behind it when the thinner liner lock may have already left the blade under the same stresses.

Now the axis lock is another issue regarding the contact. I admit I've had some that I wish had more of the bar going farther up to secure the blade than they do. But in my testing even the ones that didn't go up as far as I'd like never defeated or even came close. Because of the way the lockbar sits completely stradling the blade side to side as it does when the blade is opened and because the movement of release for the lock is toward the lanyard end and not a lateral movement sideways there is no real worry with the axis lock about lateral stresses or twists affecting the lock in the same way it does with the liner lock or the frame lock for that matter.

It appears that because the liner lock is both self correcting laterally and released by thumb pressure with lateral movement that the movements during use that can also cause the lock to move this same way play a large role in how reliable it really is under certain conditions.

STR
 
Sry not trying to flame war anything. I just thought that it would be bada$$ to have a axis lock or even a ball lock in an Emerson. They seem to be at this point the hardest thing out there. Frame lock are very sturdy locks. They are way better then the liner locks. Well put STR
 
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