Endura, ZDP-189 or VG-10 for hard use?

D

Disciple

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Nov 12, 2004
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I wish to get a Spyderco Endura, serrated, for hard use.

I am deciding between the VG-10 and ZDP-189 versions, and I turn to the Bladeforums brain trust for help.

Most of the time this knife will see moderate duty, cutting foam, rope, or anything else a serrated blade does well, but it will sometimes see hard use, and perhaps even extreme use. An example of extreme use, to my mind, is cutting a steel belted tire across the tread, as Cliff Stamp did with an Atlantic Salt.

I wish the knife to remain serviceably sharp for as long as possible under moderate use, which I believe favors the ZDP, but I do not want an instance of extreme use to destroy an $80 knife. Is the ZDP too brittle for this, or will any chipping be small enough that it can be sharpened out? Consider that I will not be sharpening the knife myself in this case, but sending it back to Spyderco.

Please advise. Thank you.


(Moderators, I found no rule against posting to multiple subforums, therefore this duplicate of my post in Blade Discussion Forum. If this is in error, please pardon me, and it will not happen again.)
 
I have the d4 in vg-10 and ZDP-189 and I think the vg-10 is easier to sharpen and has a little better fit an finish.
 
I think hard use will dull any blade. That would make me choose the one that can be sharpened the easiest. VG-10 holds a great edge for a long time. ZDP is more brittle than VG-10 and will rust. I don't consider ZDP a hard use steel. I don't even think S30V is a good steel for hard use. I have chipped S30V doing tasks that wouldn't have bothered a VG-10 blade.
 
I do appreciate the advice, however, between the two models I am looking for the best tool for the job, not the best tool for the price. If the ZDP model is better, I will pay the difference.

While ease of sharpening is worth consideration, I value edge holding and durability above it, because I only need a hard use or serrated knife sporadically, but when I do I cannot count on sharpening in the field.
 
Having both steels in a series of Delicas, I'd go for the VG-10 for a couple of reasons.

First, it's true that ZDP-189 is harder, so it's edge holding is superior to VG-10. But that also makes it more subject to chipping under hard use /abuse. If you're going to be cutting through steel-belted tires or some similar materials, I'm not sure that ZDP-189 is going hold up as well as VG-10. VG-10 will usually roll at the edge when it hits something extremely hard... ZDP-189 is more likely to chip. I have not experienced that with mine, that's just the report from those who have used ZDP extensively. ZDP is usually thought of as a top-notch steel for dedicated slicers, but not so much for heavy and varied-use knives. To my mind, forgiveness (toughness) is a more important quality than edge-holding if we're talking about a knife that has to be ready for just about anything.

Second, I can tell you from experience that ZDP-189 will lose it's edge, any steel will. Once you get to the point of having to restore that edge, you may come to appreciate a steel that returns more quickly than ZDP-189. Under the same use conditions, I can return a suitable edge to my VG-10 knives in a very few minutes with a Sharpmaker and weekly touch ups. The ZDP blades may last a couple of weeks, but it's going to take a lot longer for me to get them back to the same level of performance.

Then there's the question of corrosion resistance. Some have reported some staining and/or rust spots if the blade isn't properly cared for when it's used.
 
I can't speakfor zdp, but I once tried to cut through thin steel wire with my vg10 endura4 and the blade chipped so deeply that I had to turn them into serrations.

- chris
 
Thanks to all. I am now leaning toward the VG-10, but I have follow-up question.

It is unlikely that I will ever try to cut a tire, though this would be the knife used if I needed to. I can accept that such abuse may or will destroy the blade, and I will turn attention to more reasonable uses.

For cutting zip ties, belt leather, hard poly rope, paperboard (like hard book covers), small bones, fiberglass cloth, and perhaps very thin copper cable (CAT-5), which steel is better?

(A number of these tasks are better handled with a small diagonal cutter, and I will use one if at hand, but I do not wish to carry one with me.)

I am inclined to think that VG-10 could roll or blunt on these harder materials, and a 64RC blade would not. Is this mistaken?
 
The Endura saber grind should hold up to some rigorous work regardless, whether ZDP or VG10. I only have the SE Endura in VG-10 and it cuts all those things you mentioned with nary a hiccup.
 
I'm with Smegs. My choice would still be the VG-10 version. I work in a warehouse, so I've used my D4s to cut computer cabling, zip ties, fairly heavy, shielded electrical wire, cardboard, paper, nylon cord that comes on RF batteries, blister packs, etc. At home, I cut paper, trim bushes, open packages, whatever.

All I can tell you is what I will be buying when I get another Delica. It will be the VG-10 version. I've never had a chip in a VG-10 blade, Spyderco's or anyone else's. Never had one in a ZDP blade either, but that's my point. I don't see any kind of performance difference for my usage that makes ZDP worthwhile.
 
Wasn't it "William Henry Knives" that did the cutting test with ZDP-189, and it kept cutting, and cutting.
Here is what I have done. I have carried a G-2 serrated Endura for the last 15 years. It has cut everything and then some. I am also now carrying a ZDP-189 serrated Endura. If the ZDP-189 chips, then I probably shouldn't have been cutting what ever I cut.
My G-2 Endura has cut open cans of beans- no problem. My ZDP should be able to do the same thing. :)



Blades
 
Allow me to say, I appreciate all the advice, and I hope I do not try the patience of the kind respondents, but I am yet undecided.

Blades, would you be willing to actually test that assertion? Cut open a can with the ZDP Endura? I would love to know the result of the operation.

Dale, you wrote: "...to my VG-10 knives in a very few minutes with a Sharpmaker and weekly touch ups. The ZDP blades may last a couple of weeks..." If the ZDP edge actually outlasts the VG-10 nearly 2:1, with the only trade-offs being higher price and slower sharpening, I think I may still prefer the ZDP over time. The edge should last me months, and I can have the Endura sharpened for me (thanks Spyderco), or some other year if I get an EdgePro Apex, it should not be a problem given that system's coarse stones and leverage.

Still remains the issue of chipping, on which I am receiving mixed input. It seems that unless the ZDP can be proven durable (such as the test I requested from Blades) the VG-10 is the safest choice, though Hesparus' experience shows it is not foolproof. This will be only the third folder I have, and the choice will have to stand for some time, right or wrong.
 
You might prefer ZDP, especially if your cutting is primarily slicing (as opposed to chopping, stabbing, or some sort of "creative" use of the knife). That's where it shines. Once you get it sharp it will certainly hold it's edge longer than just about any other stainless. And it's not that ZDP isn't durable... it is. I have had no problems personally with chipping on the D4s that I have, I just mention that I have heard some reports of chipping from others. IIRC, Cliff Stamp did a review of at least one ZDP knife on his web site. You might want to cruise over there and read what he wrote.

The Edge Pro does a nice job on ZDP in a very reasonable amount of time. I've reprofiled both of my ZDP D4s and one of the VG-10 D4s. Didn't take too long at all and the knife came out with a nice even bevel on both sides. 'Course, you'll pay more for the Edge Pro than you will for the Endura, even a ZDP one, but I think it's a worthwhile investment.

Like Blades said, if you've chipped your blade, and it's from a reputable manufacturer, chances are you were cutting something that particular knife isn't meant to cut. The balance between toughness and hardness is one that all of us have to deal with when we choose a blade steel. Only you can determine where that balance is for your use and your preferences.

If you can afford it, buy the ZDP Endura, use it the way it is intended to be used, and then see for yourself whether it suits your taste. At worst, you'll end up with a great folder that's one of the best values on the market for a tough working knife with one of the hottest blade steels available.
 
Disciple said:
Consider that I will not be sharpening the knife myself in this case, but sending it back to Spyderco.
Click to expand...

Will the factory sharpen a serrated blade? I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Just something else you may want to consider.
 
mnblade said:
I have to ask: WHY would you do this? :confused:
Click to expand...

Like I said, I do not plan on doing this, but whatever hard cutting job I need to do, this will be the knife I reach for.

vinny72xx said:
Will the factory sharpen a serrated blade? I don't think so, but I could be wrong. Just something else you may want to consider.
Click to expand...

Most do not, but I believe Spyderco is the exception to this. It is one of the reasons I am getting an Endura; if I trash the edge, there's a good chance Spyderco can and will fix it.


I have ordered my Endura, in VG-10. If so many people like theirs, I should too, and other than the crazy tire thing, I believe my hard use is not beyond this knife. Thanks again to all who helped.
 
Disciple said:
Like I said, I do not plan on doing this, but whatever hard cutting job I need to do, this will be the knife I reach for.



Most do not, but I believe Spyderco is the exception to this. It is one of the reasons I am getting an Endura; if I trash the edge, there's a good chance Spyderco can and will fix it.


I have ordered my Endura, in VG-10. If so many people like theirs, I should too, and other than the crazy tire thing, I believe my hard use is not beyond this knife. Thanks again to all who helped.
Click to expand...

That's good news concerning the sharpening, as I also have a fully serrated VG-10 Endura. :) I bought it to be my "beater" knife, but find I carry it more than any other. :thumbup:
 
I think you will be happy with the Endura, be it G-2, VG-10 or ZDP-189.
It is an excellent choice for a full serrated knife.
If I get the chance, I'll cut open a can. I'll let my wife know, it has cut open plenty of soda cans, but those are thin.


Blades
 
FYI, I have cut a tire in my yard before. My dog now has 2 pieces to play with!

My S30V manix chipped a little, my SE Salt1 eventually chewed through it. No it's not USING a knife, but I was mowing the lawn, me and the tire was all alone....
 
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