Engraving:what seems to be the trend?

[on_the_edge]

As I look around at various custom knives, sometimes I see knives that have ornate engraving on them that I feel actually detracts from the knife. I am not talking so much about subject matter as I am the skill of the engraver to create an accurate representation of his subject given the physical confines of the knife. I see animals with disproportionate features, or in a context that looks...well...just plain silly IMHO. And some of these knives sell for many thousands of dollars. Of course, I know that much of it is personal taste, but even setting that aside, it takes a lot more than just good engraving to make it all happen, so to speak. It is a very delicate balance to be sure, taking into account materials used to make the knife, shape and size of the knife, and several other considerations as well.

Regardless, there are still those instances where everything does come together and the engraving compliments the knife without overtaking the characteristics of the knife that make it attractive to us even without engraving.

I'm interested to find out what people think about engraving in general. Is it becoming something that we will see more of or less of in the future? How does it affect your decision to purchase or not? To some extent, engraving can reflect your own personal tastes, which may limit the number of prospective future buyers, and thus have a negative impact on your investment. And what "weight" do you attribute to engraving? In other words, if you had the opportunity to purchase an extraordinarily rare knife at a fair price, but really thought the engraving was not on the same level as the knife itself, or the knifemaker's reputation, would you buy it?

Just looking for a good discussion here. Thanks.

 

[Lorien]

"It was the best of time, it was the worst of times..."

I don't have a general opinion about engraving.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I have a feeling it works best when the engraving is commissioned by or performed by the maker, and does not work so well when a customer commissions the work. Is the key collaboration? But I don't know because the only engraved knife I have was done in a tin hut in Nepal. It actually looks pretty good in the context of the knife.

Speaking of which, context is probably the most important aspect of engraving, which is why I believe that when it's done outside the sphere of the knife's manufacture, that it probably doesn't work that well.

Also, some engravers are artists, some are skilled photo-realists. If a 'picture' is to be engraved on a challenging knife, (ie; shape, space constraints) I think it's very important that the engraver is an artist, since it requires a certain 'attitude' or whatever to create a dialogue between the object engraved upon and the image engraved into it.

Engraving probably used to be more popular, but I have a feeling that maybe its popularity has been supplanted by the huge growth in popularity of damascus which in itself adds a new focus of interest in a knife.

David Darom's 4th book is full of exquisitely engraved knives, any of which I would gladly and proudly display as art work.

 

[Joss]

To work, engraving needs to be of a level at least as good as that of the knife. A good knife with so-so engraving becomes a so-so knife. A so-so knife with so-so engraving can become an overpriced so-so knife.

I have a vivid example in my mind of a folding knife from a top maker, with engraving from a top name - an engraving very particular and specific to that name - and the engraving was completely screwed up. This took an X thousand $ knife, added thousands of $ worth of time, and resulted into a $1,000 - $1,500 knife with ugly engraving. I have seen this knife on several dealer sites since then.

Even in cases where the work is technically impeccable, you run the risk of giving too much personality to the knife.

 

[marcangel]

There is no question that "so-so" engraving can ruin a nice knife. But that depends on the context of the knife and the engraver. For perspective, I have a Lake brass tail-lock that was engraved by Lance Kelly. Is it the best example of engraving in my collection? By far not.

BUT IT'S A LAKE TAIL LOCK, ENGRAVED BY LANCE KELLY.

Historically, that knife was probably one of the most expensive and desired pieces in its day. Most knife makers do not commission engravers for their pieces, a few do, but not many. Howard Hitchmough and Matt Lerch come to mind. Most knives you see engraved on dealer's sites were commissioned by the dealer, or were done for an owner and turned over for re-sale. I agree that some knives are a little bizarre with the engraving themes.

I'm pretty sure I also know the engraver who you a referencing with the "disproportinate" comment regarding faces and animals, that would be Jon Robyn. Part of that is his style, and part of that has to do with other factors. Jon can do some spectacular work and sometimes some, not so spectacular work. Alot of this depends on taste, and how much the owner is willing to spend. An "inexpensive" scroll or banknote engraving will run about $1,500 from a reputable engraver. Scenes and theme knives can EASILY hit $6,000 for something like a Kious pocket locket.

One must also understand that there are knives that were DESIGNED FOR ENGRAVING, the Kious pocket locket being an obvious knife that is meant to be engraved. Other engravers have there fortes as well, such as Julie Warenski's asymettric scroll, or Ray Cover's theme knives. If you want to go all out, there are the works of Sam Alfano, Steve Lindsay and Ron Skaggs, all of whom are well beyond my price range.

As for collectors "screwing up" knives with engraving, it happens, but FAR less than you might think. Probably the biggest reason is, someone wants a knife engraved, but has neither a clue about what it takes, nor the resources to pull it off well. The second biggest reason is probably a beginning or apprentice engraver biting off more than they can chew and not fessing up to their skill level. I've worked with several engravers and the reputable ones like Tim George and Wayne D'Angelo, among the others already listed won't let you do it, unless you moronically insist on something that would really clash with the knife. If that happens...well then you're just an idiot.

 

[on_the_edge]

Excellent response so far. Thank you.

I would also be interested in hearing from any knifemakers and purveyors who may be so inclined to tell me (us) their thoughts. Everyone, from new to very experienced, is welcome to add their $.02.

 

[SharpByCoop]

I'm pretty sure I also know the engraver who you a referencing with the "disproportinate" comment regarding faces and animals, that would be Jon Robyn.

Ouch on this comment. Jon's work is some of the best. Maybe he has put out a piece or two that stuck in your mind, but, having photographed many tens of his works, I have to overall assess him VERY positively. Specifically on work not involving living beings.

When it comes to faces and animals that is an area which must be proceeded with caution. I have seen some of the very best diminish their portfolio when straying into this area. Jon did NOT come to mind.

Coop

 

[betzner]

I want engraving that pulls the knife together, maintains it's flow (or gives it flow). Other than this comment, I agree with what Joss said above.

As to animal or human images, one thing I just DO NOT LIKE AT ALL is engraving that looks like it's been modeled after a drawing or from a photo. If it's too sharp and lifelike, it inevitably kills the whole knife (I see expensive but UGLY engraving - why??), unless it is truly exceptional in both content and execution.

 

[Bailey Bradshaw]

Engraving really has to set into two facets, the mechanical act of cutting the engraving, and the artwork that makes up the composition. Cutting isn't all that difficult until you get into very fine banknote and bulino. Even then, it isn't necissarily a matter of skill so much as patience, determination and endurance. The skills can be learned in a couple of years if you are dilligent.

Artwork is really what sets it apart. Some have it in spades, some couldn't find it at the end of their nose. It can certainly be learned, but I think to be a true artist with instictive artistic ability is a gift. Bad artwork is more often the culprit over poor cutting in a not so good engraving job.


To start at the top of the heap... Look at anything Winston Churchill has done. His work encompases all of the factors of the piece he is engraving. His engraving blends the style of the piece, it's overall balance of color, texture and the materials used. His engraving never looks overdone, out of place and is cut with extreme skill...( patience and determination to accept only the best of himself)

This IS the Golden age of engraving, and I will support this statement. Engravers as recently as the 1950's would rarely sign their work. Many worked only in one style in an arms factory with no artistic freedom until they had reached middle management in their respective department. Techniques were closely guarded, seldom shared and never taught openly. The vast majority of engraving was simply to break up large areas of open space on guns, knives and other implements of life in the times. Now, we have schools, forums, associations, and a growing number of engravers becoming known for their respective styles. I can see Cover, Churchill, Alfano, Lindsay, Meyer, Robyn, Warenski-Erickson and Mason to name a few, whose work is recognizeable at a glance. Engraved guns by specific engravers sell for more based on name recognition. Many times considered masterpieces of ARTWORK first, both for the skill of the gunmaker and the engraver on equal terms. In the 1800's, and engraver was as well known as an action filler or stocker in the London gun houses. Just another craftsman involved in making a gun. We have volumes of books with top notch photography to show the best works. Engraving is becoming recognized as a minor art form.

I see engraving headed in a similar direction that hand made knives have taken. Many are learning the skill, which will produce more engraved pieces, which will serve to develop styles and trends, followed by educating customers resulting in even higher quality work being made. It's all good in my book.

 

[Lorien]

wow, that was an informative post:thumbup:
Thanks!

 

[Jos]

This thread is worthless without pics...

My opinion about engraving: most of the time I don't like it. I think it destroys the look of some very nice knives - even though the engraving can be well-executed. Specially animal scenes I don't like. There are exceptions however:

Knifemaker is Aad Van Rijswijk. Don't know who engraved it. It's beautiful!

Kind regards,

Jos

 

[marcangel]

Ahhh. Subject matter. That is totally a matter of taste. There are a few things that IMHO have universal appeal, or close to universal appeal. Certainly one should try and match the knive to the engraving, and the knive above is an excellent example of doing just that. Fossilized ivory goes with an eskimo theme. IMHO blacklip MOP tends to go with ocean themes. I have a lapis inlaid Osborne that I was going to have Julie do, with sapphire inlays, but I'm thinking of a "Nautilus theme" for that one. I personally like tasteful nudes, (and so do ALOT of other people). Good white MOP tends to go well with that. Sort of a nice contrast of sex and the vestil virgin. IMO, if you have an antique tortoise knife you want engraved, you just HAVE to spring for ALOT of gold inlay/onlay. Well done scroll and banknote are no brainers, but there is nothing that really becomes "striking" then.

I've posted a bunch of knives that are engraved, some I've acquired on the secondary market, and others I've comissioned. Unfortunately, I can't seem to "repost" the images through this thread. But you can search under my username in "The Gallery" for them. Pictures ARE worth a thousand words.

 

[betzner]

If it's content that's lacking, here is a bit of Julie's. First, the linked image - something subdued to fit the flow of the fighter. Then in the attachment below, something more elegant.

 

[betzner]

One other point about my own opinions with respect to engraving - if a knife has wonderful ram's horn scales, why put engraved bears on the bolsters? For me, maintaining the theme is important, and inclusion of a ram over a bear makes more sense - especially when considering the possibility of later resale.

 

[peterinct]

If it's content that's lacking, here is a bit of Julie's. First, the linked image - something subdued to fit the flow of the fighter. Then in the attachment below, something more elegant.

For me, when I see an engraved object, what I ask myself is "does the engraving enhance the beauty/value of the object"?

I can't recall EVER seeing something that Julie Warenski engraved where the answer would be "no". In my opinion and I suspect many others, she is at the very top when it comes to design, layout and execution.

Peter

 

[ddd]

Here is an example of a true trend maker in the world of high-end engraving.
The engraving and gold inlaying of exhibition grade Mother-of-Pearl
handle slabs...

A very daring accomplishment my master engraver Barry Lee Hands on
Steve R. Johnson's "David's Fighter", finished early in 2008....

What do you think?

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)

 

[betzner]

David-

I think the way that engraving flows is very nice.

Along the same lines, there is a Curt Erickson knife on Knife Legends on which Julie extended the engraving from the bolster, through the bolster edge and into and through the antique elephant ivory scales. I wish I had a link to it so it could be displayed here.

 

[ddd]

David-

I think the way that engraving flows is very nice.

Along the same lines, there is a Curt Erickson knife on Knife Legends on which Julie extended the engraving from the bolster, through the bolster edge and into and through the antique elephant ivory scales. I wish I had a link to it so it could be displayed here.

Engraving and especially attempting to deeply inlay gold
in the fragile Mother-of-Pearl is a whole different story.

It has therefore hardly ever (if at all) been attempted before.....

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)

 

[on_the_edge]

David-

I think the way that engraving flows is very nice.

Along the same lines, there is a Curt Erickson knife on Knife Legends on which Julie extended the engraving from the bolster, through the bolster edge and into and through the antique elephant ivory scales. I wish I had a link to it so it could be displayed here.

Disregard, I can't seem to get it to come up correctly. It is not hard to find though.

 

[Kevin Jones]

The majority of my collection is engraved, mostly by makers.

I feel engraving gives a maker an opportunity to demonstrate his/her
diverse skill and artistry.

Seems more makers are taking up engraving, with some being more successful than others.

Here's an example I feel shows Jerry Fisk's engraving at it's best though not most ornate on a piece that benefits greatly from the effort.

 

[betzner]

It's really nice when a maker can do the full treatment on his/her own knives. This is one that I cannot imagine putting into a safe. I recently posted the image in another thread, but it seems a fitting one, even if recycled, to follow your Fisk, Kevin.