Enough and Good bye

F

flatlander

Joined
Jun 22, 1999
Messages
1,367
You know, I've been around life and the different boards for a long time. In my 42 years of life I've been a Marine, Army paratrooper and currently a PSG with the infantry in the IN. Nat. Guard. During this time I've had a chance to interact with numerous ego's. Nowhere have I been more disgusted than with what's been going on here lately. No, I don't post alot. I do read the posts though. It seems that the people here that don't agree with someone elses post have a tendency to attack the other viewpoint.Either you are totally for Busse or you're considered the enemy.
It has been my experience in the past that Jerry himself has not told me the truth when it came to shipping my BM. Many shipping dates came and went before the package that I had waited for over 6 months for was left on my front porch without anyone having to sign for it. In spite of this, I have bought plenty of his knives but at gun shows where I walk away with the product.
In contrast, when I've dealt with either the Hoods or TOPS, I've never been lied to, given false info as to delivery dates, and basically I've had very pleasant experiences.
In closing I'd just like to say that while Busse has superior steel, TOPS has superior designs for ME. Also, while everyone has a right to be proud of their creations I believe Jerry has a problem believing that anyone else could create a tool that ANYBODY might like better. So long, as I won't be back and since nobody in these forums pays my bills, but I've helped pay theirs, it's their loss not mine.

[This message has been edited by flatlander (edited 03-29-2001).]
 
Everyone is entitled to their opinion Flatlander, and frankly it takes some balls to voice dissenting ones - especially when everyone else on this forum is so positive - so I respect you for that.

While relatively new to this forum myself, my opinion is limited to what I have read and one direct dealing with Mr. B himself. I previously collected another popular manufacturers knives, and what I can tell you so far is that Mr. B and his company appears to deal in an honest, forthright manner that makes me happy to collect his knife offerings.

Anyone can make a mistake with deliveries; my company has experienced the same in my industry. What is more important, in my humble opinion, is to avoid the temptation to chase the "almighty buck" like by bringing back old but popular styles - such as the straight handed combat models (which would be relatively easy to do). Mr. B has done a great job of avoiding that trap for that would hurt us, the collectors....this other manufacturer I was involved did just that - brought out dozens of permutations and combinations of popular styles all just to line his pocket.

Anyway, that is my two cents....btw, I also think dissenting opinions improve the breed...so hopefully others won't be afraid to give their opinions and in that manner this forum becomes more than just "rah-rah" !

[This message has been edited by contender (edited 03-29-2001).]
 
flatlander,
I'm sorry to hear that you no longer have a desire to be a part of our little community here. Folks like you and those who have shared some of your same life experiences make up an integral part of the Busse family.

If some of your past experiences have left a bad taste in your mouth, well then that's unfortunate, because Jerry has done a remarkable job compensating for the explosive growth his company has experienced in the past couple of years. And folks like Dave Roberson and Andy Prisco have made great strides in improving customer service to the highest levels. I'm not saying that Andy's never had an unsatisfied customer, but if he has, I've never heard of him.
wink.gif
In any case, I think it's a bit unfair to equate slipped delivery dates with being lied to. Being a Marine myself, I value personal integrity extremely highly and I've never been left wanting in my dealings with any member of the Busse team.

Should you decide to stick around a bit, I think you'll find that things in the Busse community are only getting better all the time. The recent release of the After Shock Bolo project is but the latest exciting happening here. If, however, you're determined in your decision then I wish you all the best in the future.

------------------
Semper Fi

-Bill
 
If these are the worst people you have seen, you really ain't been out as much as you think. There is a whole world full of a-holes out there and very few are on these forums. There is more intelligent discussion and disagreement here than any forum I have ever found.

I think your statement about Jerry "lying" is a bit ridiculous. Why would he intentionally lie to a customer? Production schedules are a fragile thing, as I know from my days in the custom furniture business. I found that most people are willing to wait for quality.

As for Tops knives, see what Cliff Stamp has to say about them by doing a search. Not quite as rosy a picture as you paint here.

Sounds like you're having a bad day.

But, hey...have a good life!


 
Flatlander, I respect your opinion, yet I have to disagree on many things you say in your message.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by flatlander:
Nowhere have I been more disgusted than with what's been going on here lately.
</font>
Click to expand...

I don't want to repeat whatever was said above, but one thing is that if you check
hoodlum forum regarding this incident you'll find much more combative and aggressive posts than anything posted here. Noone screamed here "Busse lovers let's go get them" etc... You find that much more desirable?

As response to a knife review we saw a reply that was rather a personal attack, is that what you find to be a better way to communicate?

I honestly do not think things are as you picture them, or may be you got wrong impression, who knows
wink.gif




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zvis.com
Have Fun,
Alligator
 
flatlander; I see where you are coming from. I'm not in the Bisse club but I see a refreshingly different product in this line.

In defence of Busse Combat, I'd just like to say Busse, and for that matter most middle manufacturers, they are not big companies. Frankly, I'm surprised that they survive at all let alone give the kind of service that they do. They are very small fish in the commercial sence and although they would want to give every service posible it only takes a small hick up: delay of materials, loss of an employee, postal cock up, sickness, car breaking down, to throw their best intentions to the wind. At the end of the year if one of these small manufacturers doesn't sell 700 - 3000 units a year (my gestimate) then they will go to the wall. The only way they can do it is by keeping their customers happy. All damage to their reputations costs them dear, so do give them some leeway in protecting theirs and their employees livehoods. Its a competative market so once they have an enthusiastic following, which was hard won, they are not going to dampen that down. They are after all trying to do their best with limited resourses. Our gain is that we get greater choise and some great products.

Blade Forumites are into macho knive and fairly forthright, rightly or wrongly sometimes, but they are not ones to sit on the fence. Over enthusiasm is all part of the hobby. A knife's a knife isn't it. Try to make an Italian Ferrari fanatic or a British Manchester United football fan think any other way and you would end up being head butted.

You own a Busse knife or two, there are some points you must like some you don't. Tell us about both. I'm biased all the time liking thin, tapered, keen, blades beautifully executed. To me the Busse line are like well engineered tractors. But when you need a tractor, a tractor is the only thing that will do. When I buy a knife I'm not trying to marry the maker's daughter; I just want the product.

Have a break and if you come across something that is worth posting then please do, for it will be our loss if you don't.



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FWIW, my first order for a Busse ran out to about five or six months with a few slipped ship dates that were promised, but missed just the same, along the way. The fact that it was fully prepaid at what I felt was a very premium price only made it sting more. So I certainly sympathize with Flatlander's feelings. By the time I got that first Busse, I was ready to skin Jerry with it, hang his hide on the barn door, and never let the name INFI cross my lips again.
mad.gif


But the excellence of the blade and subsequent dealings with Andy Prisco at Sharper Instinct convinced me that I could continue doing business on the Busse side of the world. I found there were other methods that felt better along the way to get the product, so that's the way I went. Andy's service efforts went a long way in keeping me coming back for more Busse blades.

So my advice for Flatlander (if you're still following this thread) would be to try a different process if you're dissatisfied with the results the current process yielded for you. Maybe try ordering through Andy Prisco, as opposed to ordering direct from the factory. See if you get a better experience that way. There's more than one way to skin the cat, so to speak.

Wishing all the best,
Greg
 
To all who read this forum,keep an open mind for a minute,and listen up.I know Jerry personally.Its been said here how things in the knife industry or any industry can go to hell with out the people being envolved having,or,being able to do anything about it.IF Jerry was to tell you guys(and girls)everything that has gone wrong,that HE or ANYONE in his company had ANYTHING to do with,you would shake your head and wonder how they are able to get the knives out that they do now.I know for a fact,that a few months ago,a company that Jerry uses on occasion,messed up OVER 100 INFI BLADES!!!!!!!How do I know this,I saw them,and it was NOT a pretty picture!Jerry Busse is the most honest person I know,but he cannot control every aspect of the buisness.Flatlander,I'am sorry you felt you were done wrong.You were not lied to.To say that on this forum without thinking about all of the things that could of happened to make it seem that way,well,you just didn't think before you thought.
 
flatlander,

Thank you for your service to our country.

I respect your opinion.

I agree with you to a degree that there are annointed's here that if you disagree with, you are automatically the enemy. The last time I checked, this country was all about free speech and thus should this forum be unless it becomes the "commi red forum",
and people only want to hear fair weather comments. If your smart, you want to hear and see both sides of equations.

I have also seen some pretty viscious fighting on many forums including this one (you think this is bad, go to ar15.com). But anger is a feature of man, just like your anger over your claim of Jerry's failed ship dates. I do not respect forumites who do the veritable "PILE ON" when someone posts disagreement, or discontent. The other side of that coin are instigators and people who attack right out of the gate just as vehemently. Debating a perons opinion is one thing, putting them down for it is another.

I understand your frustration and hope the product quality and the quality people on this forum bring you back at some time. I will not help boot you out the door as another reply I recall.

Jerry does have the best steel you can get in a knife, and does have some tough demands that on occasion, can stifle the process.

I am disappointed to see that someone has speculated that your claim is not true. They weren't there, it wasn't their money, they were not involved in the transaction, so stop speculating on your claim. Let your claim be challenged by Jerry. If you were not involved then you have no basis, much less right to challenge his claim. I would like to, and WILL defend Jerry because he is a good man, as well as based upon what I know of his character and integrity, but will not challenge someone's claim until I have all the facts. I can't have all the facts if I wasn't there. It is Jerry's place and no one elses to defend against a specific claim.

This man spent money with Busse and has thus supported us. I totally disagree with the TOPS stuff and others, but that is a matter of opinion.

NO MATTER WHAT, LET NO MAN PUT THIS MAN DOWN FOR THE OPINION HE PAID FOR NOT ONLY IN SUPPORT OF BUSSE COMBAT, BUT THAT RIGHT HE SERVED TO DEFEND FOR HIMSELF, HIS FAMILY AND YOU. HE HAS A RIGHT TO IT WHETHER YOU AGREE WITH IT, OR NOT!

I think flatlander, you will find that most here will respect your opinion allbeit they may disagree with and debate you on it. If you leave, enjoy your Busse's and come back when you are ready. We will respect your opinion, whether we agree or not, and need input from both sides of the coin. You have clearly earned your right to speak it.

One more thing. CONTENDER, here is how my opinion differs from yours. I totally diagree with your statements regarding Jerry not falling into the "trap" of bringing back old styles. I personally feel that these knives are produced for use. If collectors, and I respect them, are able to collect these blades and make money on them, GREAT! However, I feel these knives serve FAR more important roles as TOOLS to personnel who REALLY need them. That is if their uniform code allows them to have'em. Therefore, if someone handles, likes, or as is very important, is MORE CONFIDENT with a particular model, thats the one I want to see that man, soldier, flyer, LEO or SWAT member, rescue member, firefighter be able to get. IMHO collectible value is far less important for Busse Combat's products, at least to their users, than potential life saving value's. Just an opinion.

I believe Jerry has done public service and government sales which have added considerable value to their readiness. This is where IMHO Jerry has performed his greatest achievements both as a maker and American.

OUT!

[This message has been edited by GPB (edited 04-01-2001).]

[This message has been edited by GPB (edited 04-01-2001).]

[This message has been edited by GPB (edited 04-01-2001).]
 
Originally posted by flatlander:
"You know, I've been around life and the different boards for a long time. In my 42 years of life I've been a Marine, Army paratrooper and currently a PSG with the infantry in the IN. Nat. Guard. During this time I've had a chance to interact with numerous ego's. Nowhere have I been more disgusted than with what's been going on here lately. No, I don't post alot. I do read the posts though. It seems that the people here that don't agree with someone elses post have a tendency to attack the other viewpoint.Either you are totally for Busse or you're considered the enemy."---->>Flatlander, I have been around a lot also, and if you think that this may be the only forum were you might be attacked, you are way off. If you had been around in the Mad Dog Days, you would really know what bickering is. Let's face it, people who are into weapons(knives and guns) tend to be more aggressive and have larger ego's than the average person, thus they fight for what they believe is right. Sometimes it goes to far, and everyone needs to cool off when it does. That's what moderators are for. If there is a reason you are not happy with the knives or service, that's what the good, Bad Ugly forum is for. I would say that if you were to enter any forum that has a loyal following, you might get attacked for stating how pissed off you might be at the maker. The fact that you went into that forum to tell publicly state your problem means you were looking for a fight in the first place. I remember when I had a poor quality version of what was supposed to be a good knife. I could have gone public and stated my dislike for the knife and started a war of words. Instead I emailed the maker, told him the problem and asked him to fix it. I told him that I did not want to go in the open forums to discuss this. He thanked me and sent me a replacement knife. Case closed


"It has been my experience in the past that Jerry himself has not told me the truth when it came to shipping my BM. Many shipping dates came and went before the package that I had waited for over 6 months for was left on my front porch without anyone having to sign for it. In spite of this, I have bought plenty of his knives but at gun shows where I walk away with the product. "---
>>Since you are telling your story, I'll tell mine. I ordered two of Jerry's blades a very long time ago. I waited, waited, waited and waited way past the time I was told they would be in. I wasn't too worried since I have dealt with plenty of knife makers and delays are part of the deal. This is not an automated production line, where thousands of knives are being produced. That's why you have Ontario, Buck Gerber, etc. If you want it quick, they have it quick. If you want it special, then you may have to wait. I waited 1.5 years for Carson knives, 13 months for Randalls, 8 months for Franklin knives, 8 months for Busse knives, and so on. As for shipping, Ihave no problem with Busse there either. I have had problems with other makers who send me a $1000 folder in a thin envelope instead of a small box for better protection.


"In contrast, when I've dealt with either the Hoods or TOPS, I've never been lied to, given false info as to delivery dates, and basically I've had very pleasant experiences.
In closing I'd just like to say that while Busse has superior steel, TOPS has superior designs for ME. Also, while everyone has a right to be proud of their creations I believe Jerry has a problem believing that anyone else could create a tool that ANYBODY might like better. So long, as I won't be back and since nobody in these forums pays my bills, but I've helped pay theirs, it's their loss not mine. "---
>>No, I don't think Jerry would have a problem believing that there are tough knives out there. In fact when I talked to him on the telephone over 2 years ago, we talked about H.I. Khukuri's and I mentioned the fact that they were nearly 1/2 inch thick forged 5160 steel. He agreed that they would be rediculously tough. As for TOP's, I met them and liked them also. They have nice designs.

If you like a product enough to want it, just order it and don't let your ego or the other guys ego, get in the way.
Click to expand...
 
Flatlander,

If you had read my post concerning Greg Davenport’s review of our Steel Heart E you would have noticed that I said how refreshing it was for him to not only give us his background and real name, but for supplying us with documentation concerning these endeavors.

If you would like to call me a liar in public, then at least have the courage to post your email, real name, and other contact information in public. I consider your public attack on me to be as courageous as some young punk who defaces other’s property in the dark of night and then hides in the bushes to watch everyone’s outrage. You have no email listed, and as far as I, or anyone else knows, you might be a little 12 year old troll with way too much time on his hands.

By the way, here’s a quote I lifted from one of your posts over on the Hood forum. You state, and I quote,

“Karen, you and Ron have meant more to me than my own adopted brothers and sister” -- Flatlander

That statement sort of clears up any “motivation” question there might be concerning the abrasiveness of your post.

If you had any “real” concerns you could have easily contacted me off-line.

Here is my contact information, I will anxiously await yours:

Jerry Busse
11651 Co. Rd. 12
Wauseon, OH 43567

(419) 923-6471
Here’s a toll free number: (800) 860-3622

email: jerry@bussecombat.com


 
There you have it!

A little more light on the situation really brings together the pieces of the puzzle doesn't it.

Out!

[This message has been edited by GPB (edited 04-01-2001).]
 
To see the extent of this issue, go read the threads on Mr. Hood's forums.

This is a sad situation.

Take the test. Accept the results.

As GPB says, this is America. Everyone has the choice to buy what they want. You don't like Fords, buy GM. Don't like American, buy foreign. That is your choice. If you know delivery may be stretched out, and you still buy, don't whine. You made the choice. Get over it.

Or, as you have chosen, get out of it. But, be adult about it, whichever your choice...

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The art of being wise is knowing what to overlook.
Take the Test...
 
I'm sure he has, or will return to see what kind of reaction he gotten to his post. Whether he will reply is another thing...

You are right, when someone calls someone a liar, it is best to be specific and be ready to back up your statements. I guess in a world full of liars these days, it's all too easy for some people to use the word. Where I come from, them's fightin' words!!

Jerry, the rest of us really appreciate you, your staff, and your products.

My wife loves your stuff too!

wildwoman.gif


[This message has been edited by rdnzl (edited 04-01-2001).]
 
Jerry, again you have responded in a way to be espected. But, here it is big guy, even though you could get the same if you'd check with your niece that I spoke with at the 1500 show where I purchased your basic 7 & 9.
Bob Mills
9225 Stonebridge Dr. Apt. B
Indianapolis, IN. 46240

As to my post in the Hood's forum, that just goes to show when you treat people with respect you get respect back. The fact that in conversations with you , I was told such things as "it's shipping tomorrow" and nothing for weeks is to me a lie pure and simple. 12 year old troll? Please, if you did the digging to find that post then you know that's just a try to bait me when you know the truth.
wink.gif


[This message has been edited by flatlander (edited 04-01-2001).]
 
Bob,

Thanks for the information, I will call you immediately, and no I wasn't "baiting" you.
We can settle any differences we might have off-line as this is how it should have been handled from the beginning. I consider this thread to be closed.

Jerry Busse
 
I must admit watching the ongoing theatre available on the forums is very entertaining; however,sometimes the tirades are a bit too inflammatory and seem to do nothing more than perpetuate ill will.

I have, over several years, had opportunity to speak with Mr. Busse and Mr. Hood. Because of mutual referals, I've purchaced both men's product repeatedly, and have never found myself wanting. I do not know either man well enough to declare one a liar, a cheat, or to derrogate either personally. On the other hand, I do think I'm aquainted well enough to not wish to piss either off,... ever,...even a little bit.
smile.gif
With that being said, I did find many similarities in personality. Perhaps this is why they tend, from time to time, to disagree so vehemently with one another.


As we all stare into this blinking box, we find ourselves in the ideal situation to voyeuristically glean information that otherwise would be none of our business.
Case and point;I would suspect that few of us could say they were present when Mr. Busse and Hood became aquainted,formed a friendship, initiated business referals, shared design ideas and even delt with Mr. Busse's tragic accident. We did, however, witness the relationship sour right before our eyes. In turn, motivated by indivdual loyalty, the bias we interject often results in fanning the flames of discontent. We all tend to support those we think as our friends, and subsequently feel the need to reciprocate when one of our "Own" is allegedly maligned. (Myself included,...WTF, I appologize.)But, without foreknowledge of the events leading to a "Flame War", our supportive retorts, witty and clever as they may be, often times are as blind as the predjudice that spawned them.
This discourtesy is unfair to both men.

Mr. Hood and Mr. Busse have recieved enough praise, and amassed large enough followings that warrent interest in their product. This is what matters. The fact that they are not currently friends is sad, but, it is life. At any rate, I often get the impression that they actually enjoy haranguing each other, and given the opportunity to "have a go", would most likely (when the dust settled) end up tending the battle wounds with beer,cheap cigars, and lots of laughter.
 
Jerry, you are correct that it may have been better to be handled offline but from the looks of some of these posts and others in the past I felt this to be the appropiate place at the time. My apologies to all here for venting on a subject that has bothered me about the man. I will not apologize for my perception of the tone of alot of the posts lately, mine included. Jerry, thanks for the call and I'll try you after I get off this post.
 
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