Episode number 47 in the saga of my S110V Manix & Polite question of Ankerson

[Wowbagger]

Bowerick Wowbagger The Infinitely Prolonged Reporting :

First a question for Ankerson :
serious questions for info to make up my mind
Ankerson after you got done cutting all those feather sticks would the edge bite your finger nail ?
Would the edge shave at all ?
I am trying to get a handle on what to expect and what to tell Spyderco.

every body
So I decided to follow Ankerson’s advice and call Spyderco to send my Manix to them for inspection.
For those who have not been following the story it is quite simple; I sharpen it. it goes dull too quickly
. . . faster than even a S30V blade. I sharpen it. it goes dull. I sharpen it with diamonds and a strop it goes dull. I sharpen it with a set of Shaptons and mirror polish it and it goes dull.

Quick . . . in a day or two. Other knives : S30V, CTS -XHP, ZDP-189 . . ., M390 all hold up much better; some for a week or so. Same exact materials cut. Daily at work.

So anyway . . . I thought the steel was soft; heat treat problems, because the edge rolls and dings as well as dulls quick compared to the others . . . the M390 especially (with a significantly thinner blade behind the edge) goes for five times longer.

So . . . I figure I will put my best foot forward and sharpen the edge to one consistent bevel (I have been going a degree or two steeper all along for quicker and better sharpening but have maintained as much as possible the same geometry it came with).

Now I had just acquired , after being out of stock for 7 months, a Shapton 220 stone for the Edge Pro and put that baby to work (a fresh stone mind you) making that bevel all nice and consistent. After a while things began to change and I had a revelation . . . the knife was getting hard to sharpen . . . I was whizzing away with the Edge Pro and rinsing and rinsing the stone and sawing and sawing but that wide bevel wasn’t changing near as fast as my other knives. Finally I switched to the Shapton 120 and did the same. A bit better but it was clear by the minuscule progress that I was making that . . .
The steel was plenty hard and tough.

Hmmmmmmm

Well after much time and effort I got the bevel consistant and wire edge free (not that there was ever anything but a very small wire edge) and mirror polished and hair whittlingly sharp.

NOW what do I tell them when I get on the phone to Spyderco ? ? ? ? ?
Before . . . this last sharpening I planed to take the sharpened Manix to work for one day and use only the front half of the blade and then ask them to inspect the edge. The back half would prove it had been indeed adequately sharpened and the front half would show the degree the edge deteriorated from what I consider light, everyday and non abusive use. Use less than cutting rope partly because I NEVER cut against a cutting board just sliced , cardboard, rubber coated cloth and trimming hard rubber.

So it is hard. Now what do I do with it ? ? ? Sorry some how I couldn't resist saying that.

Maybe I had been temporarily crazy all these months and now the fog had cleared and the knife would hold up as it should. It was all just a crazy nightmare brought on by too much contaminated chocolate or something.

What joy if I didn’t have to send it back at all but just keep it as is and use it.
I took it to work. One day. Of even lighter than normal use. The edge sucks; once again.

It is not chipped in the least. Seems to have ever so slight rolling and just general dulling. Won’t bite my finger nail except where I didn’t use it. No part of the used edge will even begin to shave arm hair. The M390 blade which has basically never been sharpened since I got it and only some light stropping once on one Sharp Maker ultra fine stone part way through 12 days of the same use WILL bite my nail ALL ALONG the length of the blade and will just barely shave arm hair with much difficulty.

Is this just how S110V is ?
It won’t be any good for the trimming I have to do.
All it is good for is chopping rope ?

I have never felt more lost about a tool issue. It seems to be hard but . . .

 

[Ankerson]

Let us know once you call Spyderco, send it in and what they say etc.

 

[Sonnydaze]

Very interesting problem with a supposedly great blade-steel. Probably quite a few of us will be happy to know the answer.

 

[Wowbagger]

Jim so I assume that since your Manix edge was modded you feel your experience does not apply to a stock edge?
Simce at this point I feel I have no variation in steel condition that I can point to, neither too soft nor so brittle it chips I feel I need to hear from another user that the edge can stay nail biting and shave sharp after some use.

In any case I WILL call them next week day I have off. That would be Tue the 13th. Maybe I can catch them in the morning before that; not sure.

 

[Ankerson]

Jim so I assume that since your Manix edge was modded you feel your experience does not apply to a stock edge?
Simce at this point I feel I have no variation in steel condition that I can point to, neither too soft nor so brittle it chips I feel I need to hear from another user that the edge can stay nail biting and shave sharp after some use.

In any case I WILL call them next week day I have off. That would be Tue the 13th. Maybe I can catch them in the morning before that; not sure.

Just give them a call and tell them what is going on etc.

 

[The Mastiff]

"Just give them a call and tell them what is going on etc. "

Then try to remember to update this thread afterward. I'm curious now especially since it sounds different from all my experience with S110V. Sending it back is absolutely the right thing. If there was something wrong they want and need to know. They have access to whatever lab facilities and expertise they need to. They are very good about making sure not to embarrass people in situations like this though they have a warranty letter that goes out that sometimes pops peoples corks when they don't realize it is a standard form letter.

Good luck.

 

[palonej]

How true Mastiff!!!
I got that letter after sending in a brand new Ti Millie!! Popped my cork for sure!!!
Called Charlynn and she laughed at me!!! She then sent me a brand new one and I sent her flowers!!!
True story!!
Joe

 

[The Mastiff]

How true Mastiff!!!
I got that letter after sending in a brand new Ti Millie!! Popped my cork for sure!!!
Called Charlynn and she laughed at me!!! She then sent me a brand new one and I sent her flowers!!!
True story!!

It does have that effect on many people Joe. That is why I bring it up before people get it when I can. Most of us won't want to hear it when we are already pI$$@d off.

 

[Wowbagger]

Thanks for the encouragement and heads up about "The Letter". I look forward to having "My Cork Popped".
Or not.

PS: was over on the Spyderco forum because I searched "sharpening CPM-S110V" and that was where I wound up. I keep thinking because I am using Shapton stones and not diamond (though I tried diamond free hand a couple times before) that maybe I am getting some weird aced double bur that shaves and splits hairs but then collapses in use. Naaaaah couldn't be . . . I mean I'm using fairly strong magnification while sharpening to watch the bur. Very small bur but it is there.

Anyway the guy that got tossed out'a here before my time, CS, he was saying what I been saying about the rapid initial deterioration of the edge but then settles down into a sorta useful edge and that he thought a more obtuse sharpening angle was the way to keep it "sharp" and not have as fast a change from shave sharp.

Then we have Ankerson going for what I would NORMALLY tend toward and that is an edge around 30° inclusive for best actual cutting performance.

Some say the ONLY way to truly sharpen the vanadium carbides is with diamond (or CBN) others including Ankerson say stones 'll do it, which has been my experience. But then I have problems early with edge break down so perhaps I am just sharpening the softer stuff around the blunt carbides with my stones.

I sharpened my M390 for the first time last night. I just sat on the couch and sort of half aced it with my Edge Pro stones but hand held (not in the guide) and the thing sharpened right up so easy. I mean it should right ? Because it was still almost shave sharp with absolutely no damage. I didn't do a polished bevel I just sharpened right on the very edge and left the rest of the bevel as factory ground. I took it to Shapton glass 4k then removed the bur with one hand held Spyderco Ultra Fine triangular ceramic rod. I love that thing ! Best $10 I ever spent !

AND

I love M390 . . . I was considering a Sprig with S90V but they said in the Spyderco forum it is even more difficult to sharpen than the S110V . . . I would hate to have two "Great" knives with "Great" steel that just totally make me WISH I liked them but then find that I avoid using them . . . because they actually, in actual use, suck so bad.

Part of me is starting to think, from reading the CS posts, that this is just the way S110V is and there is nothing Spyderco will be able to do but send me another lump of "dull quick".

 

[The Mastiff]

Part of me is starting to think, from reading the CS posts, that this is just the way S110V is and there is nothing Spyderco will be able to do but send me another lump of "dull quick".

I'm not even gonna call S110V "dull quick" . I will say you should use knives and steel you prefer though. Nobody Else's experiences mean anything when it comes down to what you like best. It shouldn't anyway. That is why Sal G. and the Spyderco team have brought us so many different models and different steels. Everything from 52100 and O-1 to Maxamet.

I personally use them like I do different tools out of my box. There is no one knife for many of us.

Joe L.

 

[Ankerson]

You got that right Joe,

I still use a number of different steels myself. :thumbup:

 

[Wowbagger]

I'm not even gonna call S110V "dull quick"

Mastiff,

Do you use diamond stones and diamond spray / strop
or
can you get serious results with non diamond stones ?

Cool moniker by the way. A lady told me the other day that the mother of her mastiff was a 200lb dog. I didn't know they made 'em that big !

 

[The Mastiff]

I use Diamonds mostly though SiC is fine too. I have both. Jim is a lot better than I am and he doesn't use diamonds. His edges are great.

My last mastiff died last year. He was right at 200 lbs or so for most of his life and it wasn't fat. They are built kind of like Tigers rather than lions as some say. The life span isn't great though. My first mastiff only made it 5.5 years ( gastric torsion) but Finn made it to 13.5 years. Really excellent companions if you have time and don't have a loud, chaotic lifestyle. Super devoted family dogs that don't need training to be protective and in a healthy environment they know when not to scare people. When he was in his prime it was not uncommon for people to stop their car and take his picture. All seemed to like his demeanor. I had him as an avatar until my gold membership lapsed here.

Joe

 

[Ankerson]

So any updates?

Did you call Spyderco, send the knife in etc?

 

[Wowbagger]

Jim
Update:
A couple days ago I noticed that the half of the blade I tried not to use so it would demonstrate that the blade had been adequately sharpened . . . it was not sharp. Apparently I had used that part of the blade while breaking down some cardboard boxes and not realized it though I thought I was being careful to use the front half. I am positive the whole entire edge was equally and aggressively nail biting, shave sharp, and hair whittling after sharpening. It was no longer shave sharp let alone hair whittling though it was nail biting there while the rest of the edge just slid across my nail.

So I sharpened the bloody thing again; took it to work today and used it and now I feel it is adequately prepared for inspection.

I was thinking also that since I may leave in the morning before they are at the phones and cannot call from work that . . .
what do you think about just e-mailing them in the "contact us" part of their web site. Seems like that makes the most sense and I can communicate more clearly if I write it than if I try to call them in the morning before I am awake.

You know the joke about the rock star being interviewed on the radio in the morning and him saying "how do you guys ever get it together to do this every morning ?" I can't even think until after noon.

Yah that's me; I'm a night owl.

 

[Ankerson]

Jim
Update:
A couple days ago I noticed that the half of the blade I tried not to use so it would demonstrate that the blade had been adequately sharpened . . . it was not sharp. Apparently I had used that part of the blade while breaking down some cardboard boxes and not realized it though I thought I was being careful to use the front half. I am positive the whole entire edge was equally and aggressively nail biting, shave sharp, and hair whittling after sharpening. It was no longer shave sharp let alone hair whittling though it was nail biting there while the rest of the edge just slid across my nail.

So I sharpened the bloody thing again; took it to work today and used it and now I feel it is adequately prepared for inspection.

I was thinking also that since I may leave in the morning before they are at the phones and cannot call from work that . . .
what do you think about just e-mailing them in the "contact us" part of their web site. Seems like that makes the most sense and I can communicate more clearly if I write it than if I try to call them in the morning before I am awake.

You know the joke about the rock star being interviewed on the radio in the morning and him saying "how do you guys ever get it together to do this every morning ?" I can't even think until after noon.

Yah that's me; I'm a night owl.

Email works too.

 

[Wowbagger]

Spyderco received the Manix in Golden according to my tracking.
Could be weeks before I get info back. They said aprox. three weeks wait.
I gave them full rein as far as putting test marks on the blade; any thing they want to try.
Cold Steel 3V still sharp, holding an edge well and going strong; no mark from hitting that staple :thumbup: but that's another thread.

 

[Wowbagger]

UPDATE:

A nice person called from Spyderco this morning. She said she was going to do a hardness test on the knife and get back to me in a couple of days.

We had a nice exchange.

From the discussion :

• I am the only one on the planet with this problem.
• The angles of the edge are 14° and 16° (I just sharpened the whole bevel to the stock grind as it came before sending it back) (while using it I had been sharpening a degree or so steeper to make it easier to get the edge sharp quickly).
• They won't be doing any kind if analysis of the alloy.
• They will sharpen it and send it back to me.
• If I don't like it I can maybe get some credit toward another knife.

Communicating is so difficult sometimes or maybe I am frustrated with what is actually possible here. Maybe I am reading into it and getting ahead of my self but before I sent it in I imagined this was about all that COULD take place.

The facts as far as I see it :

• The problem exists (other knives I use by them and others way out perform the S110V).
• The problem is POSSSIBLY in the alloy / distribution of the alloy components throughout this particular specimen.
• I don't need them to sharpen it the rear half of the blade is easily shave sharp and more or less hair whittling (the front half of the blade is all broken down from a little use).
• The problem could exist in my sharpening abrasive not being hard
  enough to cleave the carbides. (still I did use diamond now and again).
• They are not recommending I change the angle for my uses. I would have tended, with other blades performing this way to go way shallower but it is already shallow and I wanted to just go with their stock grind until I learned more about S110V rather than take the blade to a power grinding wheel. I am glad I did not regrind it.
• I already KNOW I do not like the particular specimen I don't need some one to put a less sharp edge on it (judging by the edge it came with from Golden) and send it back to me to confirm that.
• We discussed exchanging it for a K2 in 10V . . . 10V is where I want to go next. There are none in stock / discontinued.

Ironically I was having strong wonderings the last day or two about whether or not they had maybe gotten to look at the knife yet. Looking back it has been less than two weeks so they are doing good. I was warned it could take about three weeks to get to my knife. AND when she called, ironically I was looking at the K2 and wondering if I wanted to go through the work of reshaping the blade into more of a Manix shape. I was wondering if the Ti handle was thick enough I could sculpt it some. A four inch blade is attractive to me . . . four and a half (the K2) is really pushing it though for when I whip it out at work especially since legal here is three inch.

I had just been reading the following quote on the amazon page. I am a little lost since the person on the phone from Spyderco told me they would be sending my knife out for hardness testing and would take about three days to get it back.

eerrrrrrrruuuuuummmmmm . . .okaaaaaaa (?)

On the amazon page I was looking for the specs of the K2 and where the specs should have been there was an ad from Spyderco. This relates to my confusion in my paragraph above :

partial quote : . . .Making knives that consistently deliver reliable high-performance requires an ongoing commitment to testing. In our million-dollar testing facility we examine edge retention with a carta machine, look for rust development with q-fog, check the force needed to open and close a knife. We also repeatedly test for stress, wear, optimal heat-treating and actively search for higher quality, performance Enhancing steels and materials. . . .
End quote.

but it is being sent out for hardness testing . . . when I know it is hard.
Maybe it is too hard ?
If it were it would chip right ? I never got chipping and I never used it very hard that way because I knew I was working with a hard blade. All I expected was good edge wear. Nada.

When they offer another knife should I just get S30V? I know I like that stuff from my Para 2? Should I get another exact knife with another S110V ?
Should I take the old knife back and invest in a few paper wheels and sharpen it with diamond grit (keeping in mind I sharpened it A FEW times with diamond stones)?

After all this time and using other locks I am not all that keen on the ball lock. Very useful and secure lock but I like the locks with a bit more ease of use and less brute strength needed to actuate it (the reason I mod all of my Cold Steels).

Put a lighter spring in it and I am liking the ball lock again but they over did the spring rate in the current version.

sooooooooo time for me to wind down and wait.

 

[craytab]

A couple things:

• I am the only one on the planet with this problem.

• 
  
  This could be it right here. Might be time to move on. Accept their credit or whatever.
  
  
  

  • I don't need them to sharpen it the rear half of the blade is easily shave sharp and more or less hair whittling (the front half of the blade is all broken down from a little use).
    
    ....
    
  • The problem could exist in my sharpening abrasive not being hard
    enough to cleave the carbides. (still I did use diamond now and again).
    
    ....
    
  • I already KNOW I do not like the particular specimen I don't need some one to put a less sharp edge on it (judging by the edge it came with from Golden) and send it back to me to confirm that.

  
  You contradict yourself here. Let them sharpen it. You might be doing it wrong.
  
  The K2 is a great knife but I am guessing you would have a problem with lock stick which could start this whole process over again. They might not be in stock from Spyderco but knifecenter has them for $150.

 

[noseoil]

"Well after much time and effort I got the bevel consistant and wire edge free (not that there was ever anything but a very small wire edge) and mirror polished and hair whittlingly sharp."

Just wondering if the edge might be a bit better if it was more toothy & not polished. I've had a few knives that weren't really "good" until I'd knocked off a few thousandths from sharpening then left them a bit on the coarse side of sharp. The worst edge I do for lasting sharpness is a mirror polish on hard steel, it just dulls too fast from use. The coarse edge (fine diamond, no strop or polish) seems to last best, but YMMV, just sayin.....