Esee knives vs gso survive?

[B34NS]

Craytab, which Survive! knives do you own that you are comparing to your nice lookin' esee's too?

 

[craytab]

Craytab, which Survive! knives do you own that you are comparing to your nice lookin' esee's too?

Years ago I owned a 7/7. Nice enough knife. Wasn't my style.

And....to my point earlier, I wouldn't compare Survive to Esee since they are 2.5-3x the price. Also, the companies are run completely different. See my first post in this thread for what I said on the subject.

 

[lemonslush]

Both great companies and both are great knives. I sold my gso 4.1 as I carried the esee 4 more if that helps? I like the esee's sheath system better, I like their warranty and price point helps as well.

 

[Sunyata]

Diamond is the answer.

Diamond is always the answer. I don't get it.

"Uh yeah that steel is great and all but I'd like to be able to sharpen it using a popsicle stick"

Diamond sharpeners are everywhere and cheap.

I've got one in my tackle box and one in my outdoors backpack. And maybe one in my wifes car i need to find

 

[slg98]

It is a little bit silly comparing knives with a 2.5-3x price difference. The steel used in Survive knives is far superior in my mind. Maybe not vastly tougher like Stratt says but the other qualities are just better than 1095.

The difference between these knives for me comes with the companies themselves. Esee is a well known and well established brand that has knives made by a will known and respected maker (rowen). Their distribution network and availability is vast and very strong. There customer service support is also very robust. Survive has had growing pains from the begining. It is a small operation and the last I heard a month or so ago, they still have not increased their ability to make knives and handle customers. It does not take years to higher more staff to keep up with demand. Getting a new survive is very difficult. They started a pay up front in full preorder which always seems shady. They have literally thousands of people wanting their product but can't figure out how to satisfy that demand. Where and when else might they drop the ball like they already have for years? That is a problem for me. There are other production companies you can get similar knives from that have a better track record as companies. Further, there are similar custom knives made available in the exchange here everyday for about the same price. Why wait on a company that can't figure out its business model?

I know there will be the hardened fans that won't like my opinion but this is how I see it.

This^^^^^

Yet another knife that can't be purchased. I don't understand this business model.?

..

 

[RX-79G]

This^^^^^

Yet another knife that can't be purchased. I don't understand this business model.?

..

Going from a sole proprietorship or family business to one that has employees is an enormous and painful jump. You cost structure, insurance, QC and everything else is really different and not so easy.


I don't know anyone I could trust to grind a knife as well as I can in my home town, for instance.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Going from a sole proprietorship or family business to one that has employees is an enormous and painful jump. You cost structure, insurance, QC and everything else is really different and not so easy.


I don't know anyone I could trust to grind a knife as well as I can in my home town, for instance.

You're right. It is a completely different experience.

Grow slower. Fill the gaps in your staffing before you expand your production. Never outrun your office, customer service, and shipping operations.

 

[craytab]

Going from a sole proprietorship or family business to one that has employees is an enormous and painful jump. You cost structure, insurance, QC and everything else is really different and not so easy.


I don't know anyone I could trust to grind a knife as well as I can in my home town, for instance.

You're right. It is a completely different experience.

Grow slower. Fill the gaps in your staffing before you expand your production. Never outrun your office, customer service, and shipping operations.

How many years does that take? When I sent my 7/7 back because the tip was unacceptably blunted, guy sent it back sharp and pointy. The problem is they have not increased their staff since. That was more than 2 years ago. Demand has gone way up. Production, service, and staff has not. That business model for a production knife company does not work for me. If I want to wait for a knife I'll go custom. Lots can be had for no wait on the exchange.

Esav is right. Have enough staff to handle your demand.

 

[RX-79G]

How many years does that take? When I sent my 7/7 back because the tip was unacceptably blunted, guy sent it back sharp and pointy. The problem is they have not increased their staff since. That was more than 2 years ago. Demand has gone way up. Production, service, and staff has not. That business model for a production knife company does not work for me. If I want to wait for a knife I'll go custom. Lots can be had for no wait on the exchange.

Esav is right. Have enough staff to handle your demand.

And Esav was agreeing with me that expanding staff, especially skilled staff, is no easy feat.

Any business that has more demand than they can supply is a good business. It might annoy you, but it clearly doesn't annoy enough people to damage the demand enough to come anywhere close to supply.

If the Survive guy is happy with his income, he doesn't need to expand until he reaches the point where supply meets demand and you're happy while he is has less job security.

Anyway, the demand for Survive products just suggests that more people need to go into the business of buying laser cut blanks of 3V, sending them to Bos, and then grinding/finishing/assembling/packaging/shipping them from home. That's another fine way of meeting market demand for a basic knife like this.

 

[bodog]

Anyway, the demand for Survive products just suggests that more people need to go into the business of buying laser cut blanks of 3V, sending them to Bos, and then grinding/finishing/assembling/packaging/shipping them from home. That's another fine way of meeting market demand for a basic knife like this.

That's about the truth of it. And as Rick Hinderer proved, limited supply of an in demand product keeps people interested. Provide enough of the product for people to get them and those people may find the product has shortcomings. It loses its market appeal.

Anyway, the knives that Survive makes aren't hard. I figure about $120 or less per knife if most of the work is outsourced, and selling them for $220 is a tidy profit that can sustain a small business. Changing the formula may screw the entire thing up. If the guy is paying for his house and sending his kids to college without ripping anyone off, who's to say it's bad?

 

[chiral.grolim]

Please keep in mind that S!K knives are being specially HT'd.

If you were not aware, Guy is working closely with Dan Keffeler and Nathan the Machinist on developing specialized HT protocols for 3V.


If you want to read about a knife company that struggled in its first years to achieve greatness and made some bad business decisions, you might enjoy this: http://www.chrisreeve.com/history.html?devicelock=desktop
It took Chris Reeve from 1985 until 1991 to get his feet on the ground enough to release the Sebenza. And how long was the wait-time once interest in the Sebenza spiked? It wasn't until 2000 (15-yrs later) than CRK was considered a "fully-fledged manufacturer." So if folk want Survive! to be CRK is less time than that.... what is their basis for comparison?
It may be noted that one of the big problems CRK had was getting involved with unsavory business partners early on, namely Black Jack Knives and the guys running it (some of whom are still in business and you may recognize): http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-Jack-knives-I-could-not-talk-about-til-now-)


I don't know how much S!K's overhead is, but I bet it isn't minimal. Outsourcing does not increase your profit-margin unless you out-source to low-end providers. Survive! doesn't do that. If you peruse their sub-forum, the CS-rep (Mrs. Seiferd) comes on frequently and has addressed the issue with delays and hiring new staff often. They have had a hard time finding the right people. Right now, Survive! is 3 people - Guy Seiferd, Ellie Seiferd, and Christian (don't know his last name). Together they design the tools, inquire interest from consumers and garner investment, order the raw materials, negotiate with the people grinding those materials to spec and HT'ing the blades, building the sheaths, etc. then they finish and laser-etch the blades in-house, build the knives (customized scales for each model) and sharpen them and package and ship. That is a LOT of work for just 3 people. Guy and Ellie (and Christian) don't have any kids, Guy isn't so much paying for his house as caring for his elderly mother. They only recently moved from PA to ID for more space to expand their shop and reduce delays by bringing more of the work in-house. They did this because people were so desperate to give them money in exchange for really well made production knives.


Can you get an AWESOME custom-made blade for a similar price here on the exchange? ABSOLUTELY and anyone who hasn't checked there recently really should. But that does not detract from the excellent quality the S!K is putting out. If you have a hard time getting one of their knives and don't mind waiting until they catch-up with demand, :thumbup: But why whine about it? Try buying one of Nathan the Machinist's knives when he doesn't have one ready for you Will you whine about that too? Just move on, settle for less if you think they aren't that great, no one is forcing you to get one.


To the OP - Survive! Knives are more expensive than ESEE knives and are also harder to get. And yes, that difference in price/availability relates to a difference in quality, but also to a difference in how long each has been in the business.

 

[B34NS]

Years ago I owned a 7/7. Nice enough knife. Wasn't my style.

Fair enough, I had one too and agree it was a great piece, but kept the GSO 6 instead per my personal preference.

And....to my point earlier, I wouldn't compare Survive to Esee since they are 2.5-3x the price. Also, the companies are run completely different. See my first post in this thread for what I said on the subject.

List price for an ESEE 4 on TKC is $201.45 on sale @ $92.91 x2.5 = 232.28, x3 = 278.73, if you get just the stock knife without TKC scales, they offer free shipping on orders after $99, so you'd have to pay that.

currently S!K offers the GSO 4.1 @ $199.00, free shipping included,

comes out to about-ish out to x2.15, 199.75 a difference of $106.85. So no, not 2.5-3X.

Add the TKC scales in and you are @142.35 or a difference of $56.65, but you get free shipping.

So yes, a stock ESEE 4 is cheaper now than a new spec GSO 4.1 made of CPM-3V or CPM-20CV with Peter's Heat Treat, but not as much as you claim. Yes, many people love the stock ESEE 4 the way it is, some spend the extra per their preference. Part of the reason I disliked the ESEE 4 was the choil and the handles. I love 1095 done well, I thought ESEE did a great job on that, although I disliked the coating, and the blade thickness as well. The updated ESEE 4 handle version may be a different story, but it's getting passed "early spring" when they were supposed to be available for pre-order.

I've learned to take ESEE's production estimates with a grain of salt

GSO 4.1's will be available in April.

I agree, Rowen/ESEE is not a two person crew. They are entirely different business models that happen to share some market overlap. I agree with many that S!K's production capabilities have caused lag behind their increased demand, but I'm hopeful they can pull through a few minor setbacks that many small businesses experience. Maybe when S!K is pulling over $500,000 to $1,000,000 as Rowen does now, then I'm sure they'll be able to afford to fill those gaps. I see their per-order model as smart pay it forward situation.

I haven't gotten on a GSO pre-order yet, but because they have been so much better at estimating productions scheduling now I feel like I can wait till the last couple weeks of a pre-order to get in on the discounts offered. I probably will get and try out the GSO 4.5 just because it will be one of his thinnest knives yet. If someone wants a knife right now for under $100, I'd probably suggest a Becker instead of an ESEE. I guess I don't get point of saying in one post S!K's are too expensive to even compare to ESEE, but then suggest in another the custom route for even more money? which is actually more in line with your 2.5-3X the cost of a stock ESEE? Don't get me wrong, I love my BRKT and I'm a fan of Big C's work, but you suggest paying a premium for wanting some now?

Yup, BRKT. Or not much more a custom from Big Chris that is available now!

 

[craytab]

Okay man. Whatever you want to tell yourself. It is a 3 man operation that has not expanded even though they know they need to expand. This has been the case for years. It is a production knife with wait times and costs more than customs.

 

[Standard78]

Okay man. Whatever you want to tell yourself. It is a 3 man operation that has not expanded even though they know they need to expand. This has been the case for years. It is a production knife with wait times and costs more than customs.

Who says they want to expand??

 

[Kryptek]

I've found that 30 minutes or less of hand sanding makes all the Esee scales extremely comfortable.if you want to take it one step further a few more minutes with some steel wool polishes their scales to an aesthetically beautiful and silky smooth grip.I rub them down with a silicone gun cloth to make the scales darken the micarta scales to a deep and even green thats impervious to the staining that's common in micarta scales.

 

[craytab]

Who says they want to expand??

It certainly is their prerogative. They could but they don't for whatever reason and it shows.

 

[B34NS]

Okay man. Whatever you want to tell yourself.

It only took a few seconds to do the math right. Guy isn't charging $300+ for a GSO 4 and you know it. It is okay to be wrong, just learn from it and move on.

It is a 3 man operation

Forgetting Ellie?

that has not expanded even though they know they need to expand. This has been the case for years.

Got it, they need to change their business model to support your personal needs. You do understand that adding employees cost money, and that added cost is usually passed on to the end user? Have you ever moved a business across the country?

It is a production knife with wait times and costs more than customs.

Same could be said for a lot of great production knives, not just Survive!

How many years does that take? When I sent my 7/7 back because the tip was unacceptably blunted, guy sent it back sharp and pointy. The problem is they have not increased their staff since. That was more than 2 years ago. Demand has gone way up. Production, service, and staff has not. That business model for a production knife company does not work for me. If I want to wait for a knife I'll go custom. Lots can be had for no wait on the exchange.

Was that the blk handled one you bought from the exchange?

 

[craytab]

It only took a few seconds to do the math right. Guy isn't charging $300+ for a GSO 4 and you know it. It is okay to be wrong, just learn from it and move on.

Guy isn't selling a lot of those new no is he? It is called the secondary market. Look into it.

Was that the blk handled one you bought from the exchange?

I don't know, why don't you tell me.

Look, it is clear I have offended your very delicate sensibilities on this subject. If you would like to continue the personal jabs at me please take it to PM. You've been on my ignore list for years just to remind me not to do business with you. Thanks for confirming that choice :thumbup:

 

[B34NS]

Guy isn't selling a lot of those new no is he?

Apparently there's enough demand to put it into production already.

It is called the secondary market. Look into it.

How have inflated prices on the secondary market ever been the makers fault? Some people actually get knives for cheaper on there too!:thumbup:

I don't know, why don't you tell me.

Did the knife arrive to you with a blunted tip or was that from your use?

Look, it is clear I have offended your very delicate sensibilities on this subject.

You haven't. I can appreciate your thoughts, feedback, even if I don't agree. However, I don't expect the same courtesy in return from the internet and I'm rarely disappointed.

If you would like to continue the personal jabs at me please take it to PM. You've been on my ignore list for years just to remind me not to do business with you. Thanks for confirming that choice :thumbup:

All I've done is asked you to clarify some of your posts

 

[AdamFuzzyballs]

To be completely fair, I'm not sure Survive expected demand to increase so dramatically as it did when preorder started.