espada y daga ?

Knovice,

I'm looking back at your questions and I am wondering whether you are asking a terminology question,a practical technique one or a historical one? For terminology- in the Philippines- if you pick up a knife- you will get many terms for it - it all depends whom you are asking and what tribe or area they are from. If you ask a Tagal after Legaspi's invasion it may be espada y daga. If you ask a non Tagal they will answer something else. Are you also asking about FMA as it is termed in the USA or in the Philippines because that too is different?
Only in the Tagal and other Spanish held regions were the weapons of metal taken- the Moros, the highland Igorotes and other tribes always had metal weapons so the stick is not used unless they were playing around.

Here is some stuff on Legaspi- the conquistadore who gained a foothold in Luzon,the Tagal held territory - Legaspi's legacy was that he emulated the 'conquesti' principles he was originally against (that was pacification through religion and peaceful means FIRST- acquiring local allies and then use them to fight one another if force was necessary to obtain a foothold- it worked much better than the dismal failures against the 'Moros').

If you look at Legaspi's letters to Spain you will see he thought this 'conquesti' approach was below him- but it worked.

--Rafael--
 
well;

unfortunately for me i minored in history, & i am still fascinated by military history/classical weapons/hoplology . . .

many of the groups that are researching the wma (medieval & renaissance european arts) demonstrate/work out with combinations like rapier & dagger, backsword & dagger, rapier & cloak, dagger & cloak, sword & shield/target/buckler, etc. . . .

i'm interested to know if cross-pollination occurred between the spanish ma & the fma; i'm not suggesting cultural superiority on either side, but i am curious . . .

from what i've read, it's historically demonstrable that the japanese ma were affected by their martial contact with the mongols & with the portuguese, or for that matter, with the ainu . . .

in the wma, there seem to be historical reasons for the development of sword & dagger, as opposed to sword & shield; e.g., sword & dagger or sword & cloak -type techniques seem likely to have developed as duelling or street methods when a shield was not available . . .

in the fma, why use e y d or b y d? did some folks not use shields? or were shields for war, & the e y d // b y d for duelling & self-defense ?

btw, thanks to sun helmet & the rest of y'all for the replies so far.

Knovice

[This message has been edited by Knovice (edited 11-12-2000).]
 
Knovice, I don't think everyone used shields; there wasn't a swashbuckler crowd as different tribes lived differently. Some were in heavily populated areas, others in the mountains and jungles.

E y D, again I think are more training phases and I can't recall ever seeing it in a duel context and I've seen as many books as the next guy. I have heard stories of where a man would carry a dagger or colichemarde/kaborata and a bolo or long blade while traveling. But not for the purposes of E y D.

[This message has been edited by Smoke (edited 11-16-2000).]
 
thanks, smoke;

your comments make me wonder if there wasn't a spanish influence to e y d; from what i've read/seen, there was an espada y daga - type duelling tradition in europe.

i know this is an fma forum; i just think the possibility of "cross-pollination" is historically interesting.
 
Historically, how far back are you wondering? Didn't they spar with it 75 years ago? I thought I read it somewhere...can't remember though? They have a few stick and aluminum dagger matches at the DB Gathering's. Sure, they are not real, but believe me, aluminum daggers do hurt when they get punched to your body. The only downside that I can see to using the aluminum dagger that someone may say it is impractical as originally posted is that there is no "fear" when it is not a real blade. Fear of a stick, and fear of a blade are very different. In the dueling sense in which we do today, I'd rather be with a single stick. If it were a real duel, I wouldn't mind a dagger in my hand. For the record, I train solo with the stick and dagger, but I train it in a way in which I would fight with it. Similar to the way I train solo single stick, but I make the modifications accordingly.

------------------
Chad
Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii
www.fullcontacthi.com
 

<<your comments make me wonder if there wasn't a spanish influence to e y d; from what i've read/seen>>

Not much to wonder about Knovice. They are both termed 'espada y daga'- of course there is some influence just in the term itself. However, the term is so broad in FMA sense because if you carry a short and long weapon- the term can apply to the methodology. If a Spaniard saw a Muhammedan with a knife and sword- his first description of it would be 'espada y daga'... doesn't mean the guy fought exactly the same or played by the same rules of duelling. The Tagals used Spanish so they of course would use the term 'espada y daga' to communicate what they were doing. There were also european fencing schools established in the Tagal regions - so their western influence would be found there. Many Tagals might incorrectly call a Sulu long and short method as 'espada y daga' but that is more because he does not know the Mindanaoan language but may describeto a Non-Filipino as such.A Tagal may also call his method espada y daga and may even have a root western base for that personal system, but I'm positive he has Chinese elements,Indonesian, Malay and Japanese techniques all over that system.

<<there was an espada y daga - type duelling tradition in europe.>>

The duelling you speak of is an european framework which does not apply to Filipino culture. The rules and circumstances plus the dynamics of a duel would be very different. I think any culture with a martial culture would have duelling or contests. It is human nature- the Spanish did not invent this. However, they did invent their own flavor and rules of engagement which is where they separate their own from the Filipinos and Africans and other cultures.

<<i know this is an fma forum; i just think the possibility of "cross-pollination" is historically interesting.>>

Please reread the section I wrote about applying european framework to FMAs-becuase you'll keep getting the same answers if the questions are framed to suit a certain framework.

Also, what do you mean by cross pollination? Exchange back and forth between the martial arts? We covered that earlier. Are you looking for written evidence? Like a book?
That would be a lost cause because nothing would be around until printing presses were developed in the Philippines.

There was no sword school as in the Western concept of school (and even that some western swordsmen have disputed). The blade arts of the Filipinos were personal or family oriented; passed on by blood most of the time. So if you are looking for who taught whom- you won't see it in book, nothing before early 1900's. It would be illogical to think that Filipinos would be placing their combat arts in written form especially when there were revolutions and intertribal rivalries going on. First that family or teacher would get attacked by the enemy. This is what I mean by looking for a european framework to explain FMAs.. having no books does not mean they never existed.
Even Magellan's own records and journals were burned in the Concepcion. Only Pigafetta's flowery journals were saved which is half myth mixed with reality (do we really believe 12 survivors held off 3000 warriors already engaged in close quarter skirmish for an HOUR? yeah right.).If those were lost- nothing about Magellan would have remained. Even today every Spanish account about Magellan's exploits in the Pacific were heresay accounts by traitors or mutineers who hated the man.
Unfortunately, Filipinos had no Pigafetta or cared for one to keep records of their 'schools of the sword'. Tagals were too busy trying to stay alive.


Sun Helmet
-------------

 
i saw a posting on another list, with a spanish-style rapier instructor giving his opinion on the subject . . .

he expressed doubt that the spanish style influenced FMAs; if i recall correctly, he opined that the footwork & weaponry was a little too different to indicate such an influence.

Knovice
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Knovice:
i saw a posting on another list, with a spanish-style rapier instructor giving his opinion on the subject . . .

he expressed doubt that the spanish style influenced FMAs; if i recall correctly, he opined that the footwork & weaponry was a little too different to indicate such an influence.
Knovice</font>
Click to expand...

This is one of those never ending debates.

My initial questions, not having seen his posts, would be:

1.) What is he using as his standard for filipino weaponry? The many regions and cultures of the P.I.s have an extremely diverse set of weapons.

2.) What is he using as his standard for filipino footwork? Largo, medio and corto systems necessarily have their own footwork methods and some groups seem to have no structured footwork at all.

3.) How is he defining "the spanish style"? I find it difficult to believe that all swordsmen of spanish training fought the same way. Btw, I'm sure he's refering to the fabled "mystical circle" style of spanish fencing.

4.) Does he really believe that the Spanish could have ruled the P.I. for that long and NOT have influenced the indigenous fighting systems? Spanish influence is apparent in filipino culture, especially in the northern regions.

I'm not interested in starting this debate over again on this forum, but the above questions are what one should ask themselves when a person makes the statement that this "spanish-style rapier instructor" did.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton



------------------
Full Contact Martial Arts Association.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."
 
Espada Y Daga is absolutly a combat form. I teach it as a viable combative regularly.
Imagine you have a stick in your hand and you are working defensivly with it... Why would'nt you put your keys in your other hand or a pen etc. As the ranges close your stick becomes semi-useless. (Yeah I know... medium and close range stick techniques are suppossed to come out here but try it under a full tactical assault, we do this all the time and only the best guys can get a mid-close tech that's a violence ender, rarely though)
The weapon in the rear hand can keep your opponent from stabing you or taking you down or punching you etc...
Imagine you have a car antenna and he has a broken bottle, I'd put a rock in my left hand both to throw and strike with as the ranges change. Now imagine you have a stick and he's empty handed (Yeah I know, that's not fair, I DON"T CARE) You know he's going to close to try to nullify your stick so it's tactical to have something in the other hand for close range work.

Just my feel on E Y D


------------------
Demi Barbito
The C.S.P.T.
"A Lethal Force
Institute
 
I was just looking at it as a historically interesting subject.

As practical matter, "espada y daga" has utility; I don't think anybody's seriously questioning that.

Knovice
 
i think the guy on your tape is nuts if he thinks the daga is useless. especially in full contact. give the guy a real blade i bet you he wont spar.

in my opinion the best place for your blade is where you can reach it for when you need it. if you drop the blade while you have a stick in your more coordinated hand, you may just gave your opponent or another person a deadly weapon. let the blade come as a surprise when you are struggling with the opponent and his attention is to take your stick. but to show him both weapons is foolish and i think trying out those tangled up moves everybody likes to do with the espada at daga is even more foolish. the best thing to have when you are facing a man with a blade is more room.
 
Dave Fulton? He's Back, and on a posting Binge????????:D

My 10 cents, if I was facing an opponent (situationally) armed with a stun gun, I'd wack the plastic P.O.S. first chance I got, and render it a Whore-Dee-Combat (thats hillbilly French).

Dunno on the "true history" topic, but if it worked sometime thats probably why its still taught "classically" or more precisely adaptatively (is that a word??:rolleyes: )
 
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