espada y daga ?

One note. Tausug Taming (shields) are quite large, and cover a good portion of the body. Here is a pic of two warriors from a friends website.
WAR.jpg
More pics and information can be found on his site Moro Historical Society, as well as my own. As Ive read it, the spear was the primary weapon for alotof non-christian tribes in PI.
 
Knovice- my style is American Kenpo, but some of the martial artists I work out with are Arnis practitioners. I have a lot of respect for their art, and being a sort of history buff myself I did some research. Here, for what it's worth, is some of what I know.

The Phillipines are over 7000 islands, divided into 3 main groupes (Luzon, Visayan, & Mindanao). There are over 100 known dialects spoken there, 8 major. Their culture is far from homogenous- often extremely dissimilar, and this is reflected in their fighting arts. Their arts tend to be regional in style, with more local variations. And different schools in the same area or town may have differences.The people tend to be very outgoing and friendly, and also very proud. Death matches were common between schools to prove courage, ability, and superiority- even into the 1950's. Their history and culture, and their martial arts, were shaped by contact with several cultures- most noteably early Malaysian, Chinese and Indian. Then there was the Spanish conquest (1521 to 1898) & the US occupation (1898-1904). The Japanese occupation in WW II and that war in general had more of a coalescing effect than a transfer of culture. That, coupled with advances in communication and travel, and the fact that some Phillipinos were already trying to unify their diverse arts, give us Modern Arnis. All of the histories I've read assert that there is ample evidence of the influence of these interactions altering the Phillipine fighting arts, and I guess that it only makes sense that they would. So I never questioned it (how's that for a historicaly inquireing mind?).

As for carrying shields instead of swords and knives, it also makes sense to me that most of the time they would opt for espada y daga.
1. Poor or oppressed people (they were usually both) adapt their tools to fighting. It is cheaper, and you aren't as likely to get strung up for carrying tools as if you're carrying obvious instruments of war.
2. The warriors of most cultures carried some combination of sword and knife as opposed to carrying arround a shield and sword. Ex; the Japanese katana, wakizashi, and tanto, or the Scottish claymore and sghien dhu.
3. I've been through the Phillipines- it is hot, humid, the jungles are dense, and the terrain can be very rugged. I'd choose not to carry a shield.
4. Shields don't lend themselves to the types of battles fought in this type environment. Stealth, mobility and flexability were often most important.
5. Espada y daga is extremely effective for the kind of close range fighting they favor.

I went to a seminar a while back in which one of the instructors was a visiting Phillipino (I wish I could remember his name, but he was from Professor Ernesto Presas organization). He told several stories which were informative and allowed us to get a look inside his culture. One was of a Phillipino commander in WW II who took a handfull of men up a rugged and heavily defended mountain to attack a well armed and numerically superior Japanese force. They were armed only with their espadas y dagas. It took 3 days (I think- this is from memory) of crawling through the jungle at night and burrying themselves during the day before they reached the top, where the main enemy force was. They infiltrated and attacked from inside the Japanese perimeter, and the fighting he described was in close and brutal. The guerrilla commander is said to have cut off the hand of the Japanese commander as he aimed a pistol at a Phillipino fighter, then spun in and used his knife to finish him off. The Phillipino commander was promoted to General on the spot by Gen. McArthur, who'd just had a good part of a regiment chewed up trying to capture this position.

As for their fighting sticks, or batons, there are two types. The hardwood baton is favored by Arnis, which is a little more rigid form and fights more at largo. Rattan batons are used by Escrima practioners- it is a very fluid form fought primarily at corto. Kali, as far as I know, uses only metal weaponry. And Modern Arnis is a combination of all the variations of these three. It is true that these batons are used for training, but they are serious weapons in their own right. The death matches I mentioned earlier were usually fought with solo o doble baton.

I guess I should say that this is all from memory, except I looked up the dates. And, as I said, I'm not an Escrimadore (though every once in a while someone will slip and call me a Caballero). So don't take this as gospel. But it ain't too bad for a internet forum.
 
I visited the links you posted- I didn't get to read them all yet, but they looked good.If you are so inclined, maybe you could give us some history of the Moros. As you can tell, my knowlege of your history is somewhat sketchy, and if you can clarify any of my points, or even correct them if necessary, I'd be grateful. I get most of what I know from sitting in the library when I go to the (big) city, talking to other martial artists, seminars, videos, and the internet. You seem to have a good deal of knowlege in the history of the Phillipines.

Shields and spears- neither of these look like they would be very usefull in the thick stuff (jungle). Do you have any info on how and where they were used? They would be handy in the open and when attacking fortified positions. But once the enemies perimeter was breached, were either or both abandoned for in close fighting weapons?

If memory serves me, didn't Kali originate in the general area of the Moro tribes? I'm a little fuzzy on this one- but I thought this was where the Ten Bornean Datus established the art.

And one last question- given the current political situation and the fact we are once again bent on solving the worlds problems, maybe you could shed some light on the "terrorist" situation in the Phillipines. I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't deal with terrorism, or that we are wrong to help other countries deal with it. But I think if we are going to get involved, we should get informed.
And the last people I trust to inform me is the media. I'd rather trust Osama- at least he is honest about his political bias.

I hope I'm not putting you on the spot here, but you do seem to be well informed. If I'm out of line, I suppose you could nominate me for the gold medal on that biggest idiot (or whatever it is) thread on the 'Whine' page. Looking forward to either a reply or a nomination. Thanks.
 
Well Ill make a few comments, but trying to go through a complete history is well rather long. Also like most, I am still learning as I go. Also I am into the history and not a martial artist (I wish I could be, but I cannot afford the only school in my area). Ive read more than what appears on my sites bibliography, and learned more from others than can be properly credited, but again I am still researching. There is alota of good information out there (again please check out my friend's website Moro Historical Society he has some very good information and is truly a scholar as well as a martial artist), but there is also alot of bad information. There is also a phenomena in which history is being re-written/revised to destroy the truth. As many of us who have opened up a book marked Philippine history, it normally starts with the Insurrections. History before this period is lost, because Spain did not care to give the natives a history. In many texts only pure conjectural conclusions can be made about the times during Spanish rule. Filipino was a term originally relagated to Spaniards living in the Philippines, for natives even if Christian they were more commonly called Indios. Unlike the Indios, the people of the BangsaMoro nation had their own history and place in this world. Western powers made treaties with them, and respected their sovereignty. It was not until the US, the .45, Mountain Cannons, and the massacres at Bud Dajo, Bud Bagsak, etc...that their independence was lost.

As for shields, alot of native groups that never were under Spanish domination (such as the Bontoc, and Kalinga in Luzon) used shields. Albert Jenks has written a good book on the Bontoc (though it is very old based on his experiences around the time when the US first claimed the islands, unfortunately its one of the few decent sources out there). There is also an interesting book based on his wife's letters. In this second book, there's a description of a Bontoc head-hunting raid. Despite travelling primarily through extremely dense forest, the warriors were armed with shield and spear. For many tribes it was the spear that was the primary weapon, and the sword the secondary. There are alot of stories of Moro warriors lofting multiple spears with a single throw, thereby scattering/confusing the enemy, and opening them up for attack. Also many warriors would go into battle carrying multiple spears. However, not all warriors necessarily used shield at all times. Like everything there is a difference between someone going out to war, and someone who is ambushed un-awares.

Unlike the Christian tribes the non-christian tribes did not have the same restrictions on weapon bearing. They were their own rulers, thereby not being subject ot Spanish wimsy. It must be remembered that Spain never truly conquered a good portion of the Philippines. It only conquered those who it could convert, but in war was never truly succesful. There is also a difference between a war party and a lone farmer in the woods. While it is certainly more romantic to have the notion of Filipinos having no choice but to use the farm implements, our anscestors were no fools and fought with well maintained weappons of war. I doubt that Spain would employ native troups armed with mere farm implements (as it should be noted most war parties launched by Spain in the area while consisted of Spanish troops but were primarily garissoned by native troops most often Ilocanos, though Visayans primarily Cebuanos were used as well).

As for kali, I am not fond of that term. Ive heard the reasoning, but do not buy it. The terms for Moro martial arts that I have heard and am most comfortable with are the same as their Malay cousins. Kuntao and Silat.

As for the current situation Id rather not comment on it, since my views are not mainstream in the least. I do believe there is alot of mis-information, and there is a very strong prejudice against Muslim Filipinos. There is alot unsaid about the situation.

I am familiar also with the story of the ten datus. I can find no historic precedence for this story as being based on Moro mythos. Most likely it is only a Christian Filipino myth. Like I said there is alot of mis-information out there, and unfortunately many are starting to forget the truth and the mis-information is being accepted as truth.

If you have specific questions feel free to email.
I would also suggest these authors as a must read for Moro history, Dr. Cesar Majul and Najeeb Saleeby. Vic Hurley's books is ok for information about the US interaction in the area, but must be taken with lots of salt as they are very anecdotal.
 
dnc101 said:
& the US occupation (1898-1904)

Some would point out that the US occupation went a little beyond 1904. ;) (The 'official' war between the US and the republican government ended in 1902; the Moro War ended in 1904.) Some might even say it went alot beyond...:eek:

As to the current situation, it goes something like this:

Historically, the Morolands were enemies of the Spanish Philippines for centuries. After the Moro War they were forcibly integrated into the American colony, and after that the Philippine Republic. Since then they have been second-class citizens, unable to achieve political representation, while their region lagged behind in economic development. At the same time, the area's natural resources were being appropriated by the national government, while demographically it became increasingly populated by immigrants from other parts of the Philippines.

Unable to achieve autonomy within the Philippines itself, the Moros have begun to seek independence. And because of lack of interest from the major powers (like the US), some organizations have turned to radical Islamic organizations and regimes, as well as to terrorist tactics in general -- bombings, kidnappings, massacres with lots of beheadings, etc.

It's just my opinion, but I think the present US intervention is mostly about the administration wanting to prolong the "war on terrorism" to take America's mind off of our stagnant economy, political scandals like Enron, and other important domestic issues. :eek: :(
 
Thanks for the info, and the corrections. And I agree, it is a shame that a lot of history is intentionally lost or distorted, or revised for political and philosophical reasons. I also understand your having to deal with those who don't like ideas which don't flow with the mainstream. My views usually aggrivate just about everyone- but I state them any way
 
Thanks for the current situation update. That is what I was talking about when I said we should get informed. I would have to diferintiate between a terrorist network who destroys only out of hatred and has no goal other than to punish a group or society, and a seperatist movement which has as its goal the establishment of a national identity and freedom for its people. I think you have to view the situation in its proper context before deciding whether to get involved, and who to support if we do. I'd also bet the issue is not clearly dileniated, and probably not too many Americans would be qualified to sort it out.

As for the current administration- I don't think there is anything to the list of problems you gave other than a liberal medias' wish list. I have mixed feelings about GW, but my thoughts on the media are clear- we'd all be better served if they reported facts instead of innuendo, and I'd a lot rather see some investigations on the issue we are discussing than another political mud bath. I'd like to see our leaders asked the hard questions like why they decided to help train anti terrorist groups in a particular country. In the case of the Taliban, many of them were trained by us. At the time it may have seemed like a good idea, but it points out that there can be unintended consequences to your actions. Also, they should be asked if the "terrorists" are in fact terrorists, or if they are freedom fighters, and give specifics. I'm not implying that we are wrong here, I'm saying that we (the people) don't know. And it is a dangerous thing to go charging in to solve everyone elses problems without an understanding of them or their problems. I will say that if the government of the Phillipines is dealing with terrorists, and if we are asking the world to help us deal with terrorists (and I think we are right to do so), then we have to be ready to help them when we are asked. All I'm saying is let's make sure what we are really doing.

Well, I told Federico that my views usually aggrivate everyone. That should about do it. I'll end with one more thought: the British thought we were terrorists for hideing to shoot at them. Oh well.
 
And it is a dangerous thing to go charging in to solve everyone elses problems without an understanding of them or their problems.

I tend toward the belief that no nation ever enters a foreign conflict out of purely humanitarian reasons; there's always some pragmatic, ie. strategic or economic, reason. Aside from the domestic politics alluded to above, I also suspect that the American big brass want to re-establish a presence in the South China Sea, to contain Chinese expansion into the area. As you probably know, there are several mineral and oil rich islands and sea beds there, and jurisdiction is contested by half a dozen countries.

The whole region's a mess, but then there's rarely been a time when it wasn't. :(

Speaking of, I was watching a Spanish-language news journal (though it often verges on tabloidism) called Occurio Asi last night, and they showed some horrific footage of Moro kidnappers chopping their hostages on their necks and heads. (Spanish-language TV is always more graphic than American.) The weapons used looked more like parangs or goloks (Philippine bolos) than the more characteristic Moro kalis, barongs, or kampilans, but I hardly think that detail mattered to the victims.

Surprisingly, some of the victims survived, though with severe cranial and cervical wounds, with lots of blood. Hard to believe, seeing how hard they were hit. I'm amazed that I was able to watch the entire segment.
 
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