Ethics of coffee

B

beezaur

Joined
Jul 31, 2002
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Ok, this is a bizarre question, but is, in a manner of speaking, a (legal/societal) survival question.

I'm going backpacking this weekend with a group of Mormons (or LDS, whatever you prefer), about 15 kids/dads. As you may know, their religion prohibits drinking of "strong, hot beverages" as it was explained to me. This includes coffee, but not hot cocoa.

It turns out that I am not traveling with them. I'm going in two days ahead of them and will leave after they do. I will only serve in an advisory capacity in camp - apparenlty they need some advice on equipment and basic wilderness skills. They asked me to help, and I agreed, as a volunteer, independent of any theirs or any other groups, e.g. Boy Scouts. They are coming to me, both figuratively and literally.

Two of them have specifically warned me against taking or drinking coffee, so I don't "set a bad example" for the pre-teen boys.

I personally don't like the idea of being told to hide a regular part of my life that I see nothing wrong with - I normally have a cup in the morning and another after dinner.

What do you think? Would you honor their request, pretend to drink cocoa, or happily savor your "beans of sin" as you always do (if you are me)?

Scott
 
I would give up on the coffee for a couple of days. This is supposed to be an outdoors experience for the kids, not a political/religious debate on the merits/sins of coffee drinking. This is the way these people are raising their kids and we should respect their position on it, even if we would prefer to do otherwise.

n2s
 
Good luck giving up the coffee. I'd take some in case you get aggrevated to the point that you need a cup. Or take some Tylenol or Motrin if you're going to get a headache going through caffeine withdrawal.

I was brought up Mormon and we went to people's houses all the time who drank coffee and sodas and alcohol, stuff we weren't allowed to have.

While I'm not Mormon anymore, I don't drink coffee or sodas but I drink socially and I live on iced tea.

They're not supposed to "impose their beliefs" on other people. They might talk to you about it or give you their opinion or reasons for "not partaking" but they can't condemn you for it.

You're taking 15 kids, FIFTEEN KIDS!!!! and their inexperienced dads - Dude, you're going to need something stronger than coffee!!! ;)

Hope this helps!
 
To alter your normal habits for the sake of being PC is up to you. I myself would be sipping the bean! When you are asked to do a favor for a group I don't think it is polite to ask you to change your normal habits. Would those same people be willing to change part of their lifestyle to make you feel more comfortable?
 
If memory serves, the active alcaloid in coffee and cocoa is practically the same so logically their idea of drinking one and not the other is idiotic but then again no one has yet invented a logical religion...

Take coffeine in tablet form if necessary to bear with the bunch and be PC (sigh);>).

TLM
 
The issue of kids' wilderness experience vs. political debate is the thing that makes me consider going without.

It's funny how things like this grow into ordeals. When I was originally asked, it was 5 boys and 1 adult, and they really needed the help. Very simple, just show them how to get water, set up tents, etc.

I don't know if they found out I am not one of their own or it just sounded fun, but now the group has more than doubled. Their attitude changed with the size - I have been asked to sign various paperwork (declined) and am being treated as though it is a priviledge to serve them, so I "need to be worthy". Any of you who have had dealings with Mormon temples know what I mean.


I still haven't decided. I don't want to infringe on someone's beliefs, but some of them are more than happy to infringe on mine. If I do take it I certainly won't make an issue of it - I will quietly drink my tasty hot beverage in my own site just like I always do. It's not like I'm having a threesome and smoking pot, for crying out loud.

Scott
 
Geeze, beezaur, what's wrong with threesomes and pot? Are you some kind of prude?;) If you don't want to give up the coffee but want to keep it low key, you might want to try the litle single serving coffee bags that look a bit like teabags. You could just heat some water and make the coffe in your mug. Might be a bit more subtle than brewing a big pot of the evil bean in front of the impressionable youths.
--Josh
 
Josh,

That's pretty much what I do. I make up single servings of instant coffee, sugar, and creamer. From a distance you can't tell it from cocao, except it smells like coffee.

Scott
 
I would drink the coffee and do the things I normally would do. After all, the teens are going to have to confront this at some point in their lives.
Better it be in the controlled setting of an outdoor event rather than in some dark seedy coffee-house on the bad side of Salt Lake City (said with tongue firmly in cheek).

Good luck,
Allen.
 
I don't usually post on these type of subjects, but...

Drink the coffee man.

You are not going into their territory. You are volunteering to assist them in wilderness skills, not assist them in furthering their myths.

If they can't/won't find someone within their own community to provide this service, then they will just have to experience the richness of life outside of their community.
 
Beezaur and others, perhaps I can shed some light on this subject. I'm a former Bishop in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and an outdoorsman and knife nut. I say "former" because one is not called to that position for life -- usually about five years. One responsibility of a Bishop is to help and support parents in the raising of their children and teenagers in the Gospel (both temporally and spiritually).

One of the tenets of our faith is the abstinence from coffee, tea, alcohol, and tobacco -- in their many forms. We also abstain from illegal drugs, and the misuse of legal drugs -- anything that will take away our ability to make choices (it's a bit hard to make choices when addicted to something, whether it's a drug, gambling, or pornography).

These leaders are just trying to ensure a proper example (as they see it) is set for their young men. I'm sure that the value you could bring them would be lost if you separated yourselves from them in your own little world. They apparently see something in you they would like instilled in their youth. ...but they have a responsibility to the youth as well, so they have asked you to meet their standards. If you are not willing to meet their standards, perhaps you should decline the request.

I don't know what they have asked you to sign. You aren't a member of that church so you aren't asked to meet the standards to enter a temple (different than a church building). The coffee is just an outward indication of your willingness to provide some good instruction to these young guys. If it were me in their shoes, we'd also be talking about pornographic material, drugs, and the use of inappropriate language.

For those who have speculated on this health law as we see it I'll tell you the letter of the law is no Coffee or Tea while the spirit of the law is to refrain from habit forming substances. Yes, there is a small amount of caffeine in chocolate, alcohol in flavorings (vanilla, etc.) but I don't think I've heard of anyone with a caffeine withdrawal headache because they couldn't get a cup of hot chocolate in the morning.

Now back to the forum topic. I hope you can find your way to teach these young men. I have found no more rewarding situation than to teach survival skills to my children, young people of my church, the soldiers I commanded, or friends at work.

Kind regards,

Bruce Woodbury
 
"I'm sure that the value you could bring them would be lost if you separated yourselves from them in your own little world."


WHOA!!!

I'm not separating myself from anyone! I agreed to camp with people who's religion I don't take as my own without any separatism whatsoever. If they want to decline my services, that is their prerogative, and I wouldn't blame the in the least, BUT it is them who are separating themselves from me, NOT the other way around.

Who's world is small? They may isolate themselves if they wish (it is certainly their right), but they asked an outsider to assist. I know the LDS church has its own policies, and I respect them in that, but, it is not their right to ask me to pretend I am Mormon. If being around coffee is too much, they should not enter my camp or request services from me.

I'm taking the bean. This is silly.

Scott
 
Scott,

A lot of times, we all criticize someone by saying they are "in their own little world" -- sorta meaning "out to lunch" etc. I didn't read it as meaning that when Bruce wrote it -- I think he just meant, being isolated from this actual group.

We all know learning from each other requires cooperation and open communication, and little things like "whether to give up coffee" are minutae compared to the greater mutual rewards you and the students might get from good interaction.

I would happily give up a couple days of coffee for the opportunity to mold some young minds in wilderness skills, etc. You can always have another cup of coffee, but you may not get another chance to experience the rewards of teaching wilderness skills to those who are eager and ready to learn. Both you and they would lose out, I feel.

For me, I'm not upset if someone asks me to give something up for a couple days. If someone told me I had to DO or eat something that I felt was bad for me in order to be accepted, then I would have a problem. But giving up coffee -- hey, my body could actually use a break from it, I'm sure, to detoxify for a couple days.

So, I guess there are three options for you here:
1) Give up coffee in the interest of broadening your world and the kids'.
2) Refuse the job, and move on.
3) Bring coffee for everyone, sit down, have a big debate and convince them of the "error of their Mormon ways" and then serve everyone the coffee -- since you will have completely made them realize that they should give up a whole lifetime of beliefs and practices for a cup of coffee. Either that, or they'll convert you to Mormonism. Either way, you're all on the same page. (You know I'm being facetious to make a point).

Number three is out, probably, because an argument usually closes everyone's minds.

So, I guess, decide between number one and number two -- which decision do you feel is of more benefit to you and them? The interaction or conituning in the held fast belief that "nobody tells me what I can and can't do!" Which is better for you?

Hope this helps!

Best,

Brian.

P.S. This is sure a lot of discussion and heartache over a cup of coffee isn't it? ;)
 
beezaur, My mistake. I thought I read somewhere above that you would not be staying them in their campsite but somewhat removed. Now that I reread all your posts, I remember you just said that you would be going in ahead and staying after. I didn't mean removed figuratively (separated by two sets of standards) but removed physically. I should read more carefully. I didn't mean to offend.

This is obviously a hard thing for you. Perhaps you should share your concerns with the leaders you speak of. I'm sure they are willing to talk about it.

The concept of honoring someone else's customs/beliefs etc. is age old. I'm sure if you were invited to a Jewish pot luck dinner you wouldn't bring barbecued pork, or a roast beef to a Catholic supper on Friday. We don't always know why, or agree with some groups beliefs but there you are. I hope you can find it in yourself to help them, or help them find someone who can. The issue isn't "coffee", it's respect.

Bruce
 
This seems fairly simple to me.

If they have asked you to not drink coffee because of your position as a respected adult and supervisor of this group then you either don't drink coffee or you ask them to find somebody else for their trip. Sure, realisticly these kids will spend their lives interacting with people who hold very different standards but I frankly think it would be wrong to go along on this trip and engage in behaviors that are contrary to the goals of the sponsors of the group. Give up on coffee for a day or two or polietly bow out.

I work as an instructor at a very conservative Christian university where the standards of music, dress, and social interaction are very strict by most standards. Personally, I do not agree with all of these standards but in my public role as an instructor at this institution I do not violate these rules because I believe that I have something valuable to teach and I also believe that overall the standards and discipline make our students into better people once they have graduated and must decide on their own standards.
 
Brian,

I'm not bailing on the job, because they need me to reserve a spot large enough for their group. They will arrive in camp about dark on Friday. If I'm not there, they will have to split up.

I reacted strongly because the post by Bruce underscores the direction this thing has been taking. It started out all nice - "We're Mormon, you're not, but we can have a fun time together." Everything was set.

Then little requirements start filtering in - no coffee, they don't have a need for my sins. "Here, sign this and this and that, otherwise you might be a child molester or who knows what." "It wouldn't hurt you to be more worthy." (Of course I am paraphrasing.) There has even been talk of trying to make me take a class about sexual harassment.

As if I have done some sin!

The deal was, camping and instruction on a limited topic, no strings. Had I known when I agreed that they would want all these extras, I would have declined.

And it isn't a lot of heartache over coffee. I'm camping with a partially hostile group that is convinced I am some kind of bad influence. I could take the safe route and leave them high and dry, but I'm not like that. It isn't about the coffee, it's about being told one thing and then having someone try to railroad you into a whole bunch of other things. I mean what I say and stick by my deals.

I'm leaving today, so this is rapidly becomming moot. We'll see how things go. Hopefully they will realize that I am a real human being who legitimately cares about helping people. How would you feel if you volunteered to help people because you like them, then they tell their children what a bad person you are? It does have me on edge...

Can you tell? :)

Scott
 
Well, at first I was P.O.'d at their presumption that you drinking coffee was a bad example for their children. I would think that if THEY were the ones drinking coffee, it would be a violation of the tenets of their religion and therefore a bad example.
Whatever. But since they have now made it clear that they expect this to be a coffee-free outing, I agree that you should either comply or bow out. They may have not started out asking you to accomodate their beliefs at your personal discomfort, but it looks like that's what it's turned into.
I would draw the line at leaving my heroin and needles at home, though... :D
 
beezaur, I think you're great for going! You will obviously broaden the minds of these young people (and their leaders) and I think they will yours also. You have a good point that when the invitation came, they should have been upfront about the requirements but it didn't work that way.

It is a real concern these days to ensure those who our young people (I'm speaking as a parent, not as a church member) come in contact with will do them no harm. In this day and age, you bring up a good point about child molestation. I bet the tap dance you have had with these folks in some way allowed them to size you up a bit to ensure you weren't that kind of person.

My wife is a sexual abuse counsellor and I can tell you that the harm done by an abuser is often visited upon the victims through three to five generations! This is no single victim crime. ...and you can't imagine the misery caused by an abuser -- social disfunction, inability to have a normal sexual relationship with a spouse, and suicide.

Again, thanks for going, and let us know how it goes. I respect you for keeping your committment.

Bruce.
 
Beezaur-

The issue is not the bean - it's about setting an example. Your example of respecting them will teach them a whole lot about life and human interaction, and that is so much greater than causing contention over a roasted bean from Morocco.

Now, if they are indeed coming off with other attitudes like you said, like a "need to be worthy," consider bowing out gracefully - or not so gracefully if you feel that strongly about it. But don't make a scene in front of the kids.

If you do go along, maybe find an appropriate moment to mention in front of the whole group that you normally enjoy some java at morning and night, but that you declined to bring it because you wanted to respect them. This will put it in the open that you are not a subscriber to their veiws, but will show that you are respectful towards others. Once they are comfortable that you are not going to try to convert them from their ways they will probably relax a bit and not be so demanding about your private conduct.

Go for it, and have a blast! You'll be so jazzed by seeing the kids' eyes light up that you'll forget that this was ever an issue.
 
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