Ethics of coffee

Maybe I can add a couple comments to defuze some of the emotional aspects of this situation. I think the coffee issue came up, not because you were some guy in the neighborhood who drinks coffee, but because you hold a particularly high status in the eyes of the boys due to your expertise and leadership in survival training. If you drink coffee it will be seen as the macho and sophisticated thing for a rugged man of the outdoors to do. I see their concern, but if I was in their shoes I'd be awfully appologetic and accomodating in any requests like this. I guess that I might bring some freeze dried coffee and mix it in with my coco (it tastes pretty good that way).

The issue of signing papers for the priveledge of leading the boys is getting very common these days in all circles. It is not a particularly Mormon thing. I have had to do this for various Christian churches and public school functions. The issues of molestation that the Catholic Church is facing have been seen in the form of numerous lawsuits and prosecutions of schools, churches, and youth clubs. I am surprised that they would accept you without some paperwork to cover their asses. I know that I have even been given a police background at one school where I taught an after school hands-on science course. It's gotten to the point that I wouldn't teach in a room without an observation window in the door and I wouldn't lead a field trip without some unrelated parents along as witnesses.

If you're going to lead a bunch of kids in situations like this, you need your own motivation for doing it. You need to see if your motivation is worth the special hastles that come with the territory.
 
Beezaur-

If coffee beans are the only hangup, it sounds like you are going to have a fun outing. Just relax and enjoy it. BTW, remember we are counting on you to return with 15 brand new knife nutz. :D

n2s
 
I'm actually a pretty mellow guy. I have been bitten in the past, hence the refusal to sign, etc. I also try to take myself in context, which I why I solicited the opinions of others.

For Bruce, I wouldn't dream of wandering through their sites with coffee in hand. I may be stubborn, but I'm not rude.

For the record, this is what I plan:

I will take my coffee as normal and drink it in my site after I eat the wallpaper paste breakfast food we call oatmeal. Evenings will see another cup, drunk while I write in my journal, again in my own site. This is my regular routine. I see no reason it should offend anyone or interfere with any religious ceremonies and therefore won't change it.

If I was recieving any compensation, even a ride to and from, things would be different. I would have asked what the conduct requirements were and expected to sign paperwork. As it is, I am on my own.

Maybe I should take some pot and a couple of women. At least that would relax me. (Kidding - I don't even drink.)

Scott
 
What if the had been of a religion that forbade the consumption of pork? Would you still take your morning bacon?

On one hand, it seemed that they had simply asked this one thing. When you got to the "more worthy", that smacked of religious chauvinism.

I think I would, out of an overall respect, forgo the coffee. Afterwards, I would explain the facts of life to the individual(s) who made the worthiness comments.

I am confused. How did they find you? Phone listing cold call or a referral? Guess I don't see why, if a referral, that persons word wasn't enough.

Mike
 
"I am confused. How did they find you?"

Most of my family is Mormon. They know I have over 18 years wilderness and emergency services experience, and the crew going didn't even know what to eat. It has also been suggested that I'm a good "missionary opportunity." I'm flattered :)

Truth be told, about 1/4 to 1/3 of the Mormons I know drink coffee (of maybe 150). Yes, even to the point of caffiene headaches when they go without. I've been to Utah several times and have seen it there, too, although with greater concern (sometimes it gets poured into soda cans instead of mugs). Those who I've spoken to about it simply say they don't agree with the policy. Whatever. I don't agree with some of my church's policies either. I have no idea what status "bean worship" reaches in other parts of the Mormon community.

I have had a lot of contact with Mormons, and as I've said, I do like them as a group. They make good neighbors and friends. You don't often see a group of people that adheres so strongly to a set of values. That is refreshing. The only problems I have ever had with them is being assumed to be without moral fortitude, and the ever-present missionary effort, and these were small problems.

Scott
 
Originally posted by beezaur
It does have me on edge...

Can you tell? :)

Scott
Click to expand...

Then you really need to cut down on caffeine! :D

I was being tongue-in-cheek to make a point in my post - I see where you are going with all that business. I was focusing on the coffee because it IS such a minor issue. If they asked you to cut off your arm or leg and leave it at home, then I'd probably bow out. ;) The coffee itself isn't a big enough issue to get excited over, that's all. But from what you write, there is more to it, obviously.

I can see how you are feeling maybe insulted, but my guess is, they do that to everyone who is not of their group, so I wouldn't take it personally. It's paranoia and control on the part of the people to a degree. Then again, they were probably just testing you for reaction, as Bruce said. But I'm glad you're going -- it's an opportunity for you to show them that others out there (who are not of their group) are decent hardworking folk, too.

If they weren't just probing you for reaction, then the means they are using are classic cult control mechanisms, if I'm reading your posts right. I don't think the Mormon Church overall would approve of the way they are handling things with you -- my friends who are Mormon are some of the most sincere, hardworking, and friendly people I've ever known, and have never displayed these kinds of attitudes towards me.

Bruce reminds me of my Mormon friends with his comment here: "You will obviously broaden the minds of these young people (and their leaders) and I think they will yours also." An open attitude of exchange in all his posts.

Sounds like, if these people are like bruce, you'll have a great time.

~Brian.
 
Just for fun: Salt Lake City is about a 50/50 split between members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and others. There are large Catholic and Greek Orthodox communities in SLC. Utah has the largest consumption of ice cream and jello, per capita, of any state in the nation. There is some great backpacking/day hiking/wilderness areas in the state. The largest grizzly bear killed in the lower 48 states was killed in Northern Utah in 1913 by a sheepherder (in his underwear!!!) with seven shots from a 25-35 Winchester -- less stopping power than a 30-30. The sheepherder was in his underwear, not the bear! It weighed over a thousand pounds, was about ten feet tall when standing, and it's skull was housed in the Smithsonian till some years ago when it was returned to the state.

Bruce
 
deffinitely one of the more interesting posts here lately.

I like your plan. do what you want in your site. play by their rules in theirs, that is fair.

I wouldn't sign anything, if they don't trust you.......then let them find someone more trustworthy.

good luck
 
Beez,

Tough one man. For what it's worth, my advice is to politely decline. If they ask why, politely tell them. If it was just the coffee, I'd go, and either sneak it at my own campsite or forego it entirely. Given the other issues however, I wouldn't be comfortable going.

I lived in Utah for five years. My wife is from Utah. The Mormons as individuals are nice people. They make great neighbors. As a whole, however, they were enough to make me decide to move. .032 beer and four bucks a pack for smokes....Yikes!! Live however you want to people, but don't make the rest of us miserable.

Take care,

Andy
 
I struggled about halfway down this thread and couldn't read anymore. I did all my Boy Scout camping with a Conservative mormon scout troop. They were very respectful of my Non-mormon leanings, and never forced their (peculiar) restrictions onto me.

Therefore,

Don't drink coffee. But do drink tea. Coffee is too bitter for camping trips, but tea goes down wonderfully.

When they lay their trip on you, simply say, "But I am *not* a mormon. Why should I live under mormon restrictions if I am not one? I just don't understand. I haven't ordered y'all to drink coffee..."

Live and let live, AKA Mutual respect.
 
Enjoy your beans. Sounds like a great opportunity for THEM to practice respect for others and tolerance.
 
Well guys, this is certainly one of the better threads I have seen.

It is a delicate issue. I have many Jewish friends and I believe the situation is the same. I never have pork when they visit me of course out of respect for their religion. They also never serve pork etc at their homes. When we go and eat out, however, it is free game. I order whatever I like and they do not take offense. It is "neutral" territory. I have some very religious Jewish friends and we then only eat out at kosher restaurants anyway.

If I were in your shoes, I would go anyway and give up the coffee in their presence, but drink it in my tent or out of sight completely, and I would let them know up front that this is what I will do. If they insist that you abstain altogether, then I would definitely tell them all to take a hike politely and go on my own anyway.

Live and let live and don't impose anything on me in neutral territory. PERIOD.

Have a good one there Bee.
 
This is a pretty funny thread. As a Mormon Scoutmaster:
1. Mormons (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) are protective of their youth, who are generally really nice kids.
2. Kids really are very impressionable and will copy someone they think is cool. It would be nice if they don't KNOW you are drinking coffee. Yes, many Mormons do drink coffee but that means they are not temple worthy. Temple worthiness is a good thing.
3. Thanks for helping; many of our parents have negligible outdoor skills.
 
Must chime in. I'm an LDS scoutmaster too. In Utah. Your beverage choice would not be an issue in my troop.

As to the paperwork, the BSA is requiring that more and more all the time. If there is water activity, climbing, guns and all that the paperwork increases quite a bit. Then add in the paperwork from the church side and it can get rather bureaucratic.

Sign the papers or not as you choose. That's your perogative.

And I say take the coffee. Don't hide it, don't flaunt it. Be yourself.

Phil
 
Did you ever return??? Or did the LDS keep you and send you out on Missionary work??? I just came across this wonderful thread and I was really wanting to read the After-Action report.

What happened. Journal entries PLEASE... :D
 
Buy or Make yourself a container of 'Cafe Vienna'...looks like instant cocoa.


1/2 cup instant coffee
2/3 cup sugar
1/2 cup instant dry milk powder
1/4 cup powdered coffee creamer
1 teaspoon cinnamon
1/4 cup store bought instant butterscotch or vanilla flavored pudding mix (optional)

Measure all of the ingredients in a clean dry bowl. Use a fork or a whisk to combine everything together, so it's all evenly distributed. Transfer the mixture to a zip lock bag.
To Prepare: Place 2 teaspoon of dry Cafe Vienna into a coffee cup. Add hot water to fill up the cup (about 3/4 cup hot water). Stir and serve.
 
Originally posted by bruce
The concept of honoring someone else's customs/beliefs etc. is age old. I'm sure if you were invited to a Jewish pot luck dinner you wouldn't bring barbecued pork, or a roast beef to a Catholic supper on Friday. We don't always know why, or agree with some groups beliefs but there you are. I hope you can find it in yourself to help them, or help them find someone who can. The issue isn't "coffee", it's respect.
Click to expand...

This metaphor is exactly right, but applied to the wrong party. They asked him to help. They are not paying, or bartering, or giving anything in return -- he's doing it to be a good guy. He will be there before them, he will be there after them. They are coming to him. To apply your metaphor, they are bringing the pork to his house, and they are the ones lacking in respect.
 
Take your coffee, don't make issue of it, don't offer them any. Although many LDS adults do drink coffee.

Just my 2 cents

45 ACP
 
If you were told not to drink coffee, then I think their religion is being forced on to you. If they requested you not to drink coffee, with the understanding that you may drink it anyway, then I respect the request. But it really comes down to if you agreed not to drink coffee. If you understand this point, and do not want to offend, then pack coffee for the days they will not be their, and viverin caffeine pills for the days they are (if you need caffiene like I do). Understand this is coming from a coffee-a-holic. I cannot do without coffee/caffiene (I work rotating 12 hour shifts,7-7 days, 2 weeks, then 7-7 nights 2 weeks). Good luck on your trip, Reagan
 
Hi all,

I was feeling guilty for the entire trip about being so wound up etc. on the board.

Anyhow, the trip went very well. A couple of the boys asked which ward I was from. When I told them I wasn't from a ward I got a wide-eyed "Ohhhh..." :)

The coffee/conflicting churches thing went well. I returned to my camp at night to give them time to do their religious things, and they took the opportunity - there was a good unspoken understanding and mutual respect between us. I had my beanage at my own site a couple hundred feet away. I doubt they knew or cared.

Daylight hours brought comaraderie (The Order of the Brothers with Sore Feet, maybe?) and legitimate appreciation of one another's company. This is the conduct that I have come to expect from them and wasn't disappointed.

It turned out that my liaisons were the only problems, which is often the case; the doers simply do and the talkers usually cause more problems than they are worth.

Neither of us compromized our regular ways of "doing" or interfered with the other. That, I believe, is the only sustainable way two different groups can live peacably together. I am glad to see that tolerance is not entirely dead.

Scott
 
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