Ever get knifed-out?

Knifedaddy84,

However, it's a real automobile, and it does, in fact, go 200 miles per hour. To your debate, it just isn't doing it now, at this moment.

My position is that there is no knife fighting. True, there was 100 years ago when pistols were single shots and any bit of dampness rendered them useless. And of course, there were dime novels.

However, we're not sure there even was a Vidalia Sandbar fight. It might have been on the Nachez side. The knife was probably Rezin's, and there's no historical proof that Mr. Bowie ever used a knife again.

So it is in our time. I've never seen a subject debated more than knife fighting and the use of a Bowie. I look at it as the great urban myth. We cannot even locate a knut here who ever was in a knife fight, and the hobbyists here probably own more knives per capita than the public at large.

If your debate is correct, than it should be an easy task to locate someone, anyone, who has used a Bowie in a real-deal knife fight. It's just one of those things we 'romanticize' about, and it happens over things we hold to be part of our heritage.

I had a conversation with Lynn Little one night, as he lives in Texas. I asked him about similar events from a 'west Texas' point of view. Same deal, no cowboy brawls, in fact, unless you work on a ranch or a farm, not many guys even wear cowboy boots.

You should read more of what really happened in our country during our wild days. I like the stories in 'Guns & Ammo' and 'Shooting Times' that take stories and research them. I like a good yarn as much as anyone, but much of what is written here on this subject is mainly myth.

Besides, all the Bowie fighters will all come out now and document their actual fights.
 
Tourist:

In an age of technology, the bowie has been relegated to secondary status, certainly with the restrctions on them from the 1830's forward in the deep south.

They were banned early on as many deaths ocurred by the blades worn by men in public who felt their honor had been challenged.

Classic duels did take place as mentioned for years at the dueling oaks in New Orleans and elswhere in the deep south. And old Jim himself would not have been one to go "unheeled" in an era when everyone was heeeled with a bowie and honors and ones life had to be defended at a moment notice.

There are first hand accounts of Jim at the Alamo with his famous long knife alongside for the ride. Whether he was bedridden and used it to take a few as they rushed into the doorway is disputed and no one would have been around to account and record it for posterity by the time the mexicans charged into the garrison and barracks. I'm pretty confident most every able bodied man had a long knife on him as well, though most would not have had need for one except for utilitarian purposes. It was still there in the event one had to defend his person.

As most states have banned long knives for quite some time, they have not been carried as much in the last 100 years. There are better weapons available to us now.

That does not make the Bowie knife, or the study of the blades history any less important to us. It certainly does not negate the effecitveness of the big blades when one has the training in their use defensively.

I'll become a certified Bowie instructor through Keatings Comtech Bowie cert program this year myself. Will I ever use the knowledge to defend myself with one? Hell no, the odds are slim and none. That doesn't negate the interest in historical data about their effective use or heritage however.

As I carry a long knife on the weekends [ as you know ] I may, thats MAY have to use it one day. It certainly behooves one to have some knowledge of the big blades and the techniques employed if one plans on increasing the odds of survival with the knife if and when it should ocurr.

Then again, in another 20 years of gun grabbing, we may be back to knives as primary defensive weapons on the streets.

The criminals have certainly not given up their blades. The LEO's I train tell me they see 8 knives for every gun on the streets in NE anyway. That means I stand a good chance of being approached by a BG who has a knife.

Then there is the training in defensive knife. You may never need the training but it would still be there if the ocassion arose to utilize it. Better to know it and not need it I think than the other way around. As well, since reaching a certain level of knowledge in defensive knife and its use, I am a little better prepared to understand the dynamics and angles I may be attacked from than one who has decide no training is necessary as the odds of becoming involved in a knife fight are slim and none in their opinion.

I have swat, sniper and counter terrorist training as well. As I'm not about to be caryng a long smoke pole around with me either, did I need to get the training? No, of course not, but it sure is nice to have the knowledge to fall back on if and when it is ever needed in a crisis. I don't expect to be involved in clearing houses of BG's and I don't see shooting someone at 600yrds in the near future either. But if and when the day comes I need to be that person, I have the equipment and training to take the shot if it presents itself.

We train with the handguns, yet very few will ever use a gin in defense of themselves. The training and carrying of a pistol on ones person is for the potential to be involved where the gun is needed defensively.

It is a matter of odds. Go strictly with the odds and you don't need to carry a gun or a knife for possible defense ever.
We do train in their expeditious use for the possibility we may need to utilize it one day.

Perhaps less so the bowie or long knives, but them "forethought goes a long way to surviving". You can cut the odds of being involved by restricting where you frequent regularly or staying home. You can cut the odds even further by carrying a weapon of some kind in the event you are attacked. You can cut the odds even further by training for the possibility.

I've carried a gun for 33 years concealed, only had to pull it a half dozen times and make it go bang once in that time, and I worked the mean streets of Mattapan, Dorchester, Roxbury, Hyde Park, Southie, etc in the Boston area well after dark in some seedy areas I would have rather stayed out of but could not due to workloads. As well, all over the projects of R.I. like South Providence and Conn. like East Hartford.

It has been there the rest of the time with nary a thought about it. If I played the odds, I would not have carried at all or sought the training to higher levels which up the odds at surviving such an encounter.

I may have a gun that jams and I need to access another weapon immediately. If I'm not carrying anything else, well, thats gonna be hard to do. Even harder without the knowledge to effectively use it if it is ever needed.

Plan for the worst, hope for the best. Not hope you never need something, playing the odds and then need it one day to save the bacon of another or yourself.

Just an opinion, others mileage will vary.

Brownie
 
knifedaddy84:

Sssshhhh!!!!!!!!!, it's Massachusetts.

Mass. statute 269-10b dangerous weapons statute relative knives states "Massachusetts - Chapter 269, Section 10... (b) Whoever, except as provided by law, carries on his person, or carries on his person or under his control in a vehicle any stiletto, dagger, or a device which enables a knife with a locking blade to be drawn at a locked position, any ballistic knife..., dirk knife, any knife having a double-edged blade, or a switch knife... shall be punished by
imprisonment for not less than two and one-half years nor more than five years in the state prison... except that,
if the court finds that the defendant has not been previously convicted of a felony, he may be punished by a fine of not more than fifty dollars or by imprisonment for not more than two and one-half years in a jail or house of
correction.

Massachusetts Case Law:
- "Knives described as 'kitchen knife,' 'folding type knife,'
and 'Swiss army knife' may not fall within category of
dangerous weapons." (1994)

Notice the lack of restriction as to any blade length. Statutes state restrictions like above, where no restriction is mentioned, there is none.

Brownie
 
Originally posted by brownie0486
knifedaddy84:

Sssshhhh!!!!!!!!!, it's Massachusetts.
Click to expand...
Funny, I'm heading to Cape Cod tomorrow, along with my Strider SnG and CRKT M16 LE. I once worked up there as a Natural Resources Officer. If you took clams without a license, I was all over you. ;)
 
almost there; slowly improved edc in succession from spyderco delica,cold steel voyager,spyderco endura,sog pentagon elite,bm 710,spyderco military,sere 2k ending with sebenza alternating with strider sng--quite a journey (aided with help from this forum). my biggest kick to date has been ordering 2 red victorinox scouts for my 8 & 10 year olds--what goes around comes around.
 
knifedaddy84:

Should you ever have probelms in Ma. that are knife related, have them cite 269-10b for you. They probably won't even know the statute numbers.

Keep in mind the 1994 ruling that exempts kitchen, folders, and swiss army type knives from the statute. That always gets their undies in a bunch.

Enjoy your trip to Cape Cod, there will be no traffic to deal with this time of year.

Edited to add: In Boston, since 9-11, there is a 2 1/2" blade length restriction. It's not enforced but you should be aware of it.

Brownie
 
Brownie,

Your post has two main issues I'd like to address.

The first is the usual justification. I opine to a knut that Bowie fighting is a myth. The knut responds, "Well, they used them at the Alamo, so it's valid." To me, that's like saying I need a basement of properly oiled buggy whips, 'just in case.'

The next is the issue of training. Can you be taught to use a Bowie? Sure, you can taught to use anything. But when one hobbyist, like yourself, justifies use by his singular anecdotal experience, then 1,000 younger knuts believe it is a proper, and necessary course of action. And they never train as thoroughly.

We can project what the government will let us keep and what may happen. If a government is going to jack your firearm, trust me, they'll jack your Bowie.

More to the point, and I think you'll agree, is the appearance of this atypical thing. If some young kid EVER drew a Bowie in my presence, there would be a large hole in his forehead, no debate. And trust me, the usual newspaper article would read "Nut with knife attacks citizen." And I've read an article where someone used a pirate's cutlass, for Pete's sake, and the burden of proof ultimately rested with him and his bizarre actions.

You may feel qualified and justified. Your conduct may reflect the majority of opinion here in the forums. I do not think it works on the street, I do not feel it's valid, and I think there's a lot that detracts from our mutual concern.

I could go through history and choose any implement. After all, at some point these weapons were the state of the art. I like Bowies myself, but I do not see them as legitimate participants in today's defensive spectrum.

Brownie, I do thank you for being civil in this emotional exchange. I hope I come across as the same.
 
The Blade retriction in Boston Sucks Ass. I have a good friend there who I turned on to decent knives with a Medium cold Steel Tanto Voyager, and now that's an illegal cary? BulllShite!

Hey knifedaddy, where on the Cape? Do you know Besse's Boat Livery in Onset? That was my grandpa's marina. He built it by hand.

Happy Holidays all.

jmx
 
Tourist:

I would not profess to anyone they should or should not carry an item possibly used for their own defense.

I carry a neck whip, and don't see the need for it.

I carry a gun [ sometimes, but not much lately as I don't have the need I had for it at one time while working the streets ].

I always carry at least one knife, usually two folders on either pocket, perhaps a straight blade and folder combo whether I am carying the guns or not.

I understand the concerns you have expressed and agree those concerns are valid here in never never land. It's probably happened and just not reported to us for obvious reasons.

If one carries a defensive knife, any knife, to my thinking, they need to have some background in it's use first, or at least should IMO.

Like the irresponsible gun owners out there with no training or very little who react irrationally when confronted out of lack of training and forethought [ which gives all gun owners bad raps ], the person carrying a knife should be responsible in their actions.

I can see the correlation you make between young, inexperienced, easily swayed reading the posts here on various subjects and then going about trying what they have read [ like carrying a bowie knife around ]. It can always lead to potential bad press for the knifeknuts among us.

First, one needs to act responsibly at all times when "heeled" with any weapon. If one does not have the sense to act civil and not become so enamored with what they are carrying, they shoud not be carrying.

Once you have the maturity to carry level headed, have the knowledge of the laws pertaining to the weapons one is carrying, are not prone to anger easily, has a good feel for the area they are in and the parameters of their environ which may make demands on them, understands that just because you have a weapon doesn't mean you have to react to a provocation with lethal force [ and I know this happens often enough everywhere in the US to not have to guess some here are guilty of this as well ], once you understand the reality of surviving the aftermath of your actions, when it all has come together and you then decide what to carry for your own safety, and as long as it is legal in that jurisdiction, I say they are then ready to carry a lethal weapon, and not until.

Thats not ever going to happen however, neither on this forum or anothers forum, or in real life forthat matter.

There will always be people who think they have the answers, think they can outsmart the BG's and the cops, think they can get away with something they wouldn't try without being "heeled", etc. There's no getting away from it here or elsewhere.

There are boneheads from every walk of life, every age and mentality. Like alcoholism, if one does not want to be fixed [ either mentally or physically ] they will not grow without suffering the fate of fools.

You and I can not stop this from happening here or elsewhere. You can not talk someone into being prudent and cautious in the actions when "heeled", it comes with experience and maturity. Many will not grow to that level, many will not grow enough emotionally before fate intervenes and they are between a rock and a hard spot [ like jail for foolishness and no forethought for their actions ].

I see this more everyday with the youth of this country. There are many reasons it happens, some cultural, some social, and some due to no direction from family during the formative years.

These we can not help, they suffer their own fate by their own hands. The prisons are full of such people, young and old alike.

The best you can hope for is to educate the less informed, warn them of the dangers present criminally and civilly and hope they are prudent in their actions at all times with much forethought before they go out carrying any weapon on their person.

If one has the maturity to know the difference betwen right and wrong and act accordingly in public, alls well. If they don't, it is not up to you and me to worry about what their subsequent actions bring them in grief through the courts and criminal justice system.

No one should do as I do unless they have walked in my shoes for as long as I have and have a background similiar to mine.

Though I'll carry the bowie on weekends, I do not expect to use it, it will certainly not be my first choice, but it is a choice still the same.

I'll be held to the same standard as another in the community for their actions, right or wrong.

I've made mistakes, have taken the chances I would not want to see another take here and survived the events through luck and then training and familiarization with such events from past experiences.

Each has to determine their threshold of knowledge and training, has to know their limitations in a given scenario without the hype and bull meter running.

If one does not know these things, has not learned these things from experience, they should not attempt an action without full knowledge of their consequences and having made the decision with some forethought beforehand.

Anyone that doesn't think about what they are doing while carrying, will let anger or other emotions dictate their actions needs to re-assess why they are carrting a dangerous weapon to begin with.

This isn't the movies or a video game, it's real life and death out there on the streets.

My biggest gripe is people who carry the latest and greatest knife out there and will not take the time to learn it's proper use defensively. But that is just a personal thing with me based on my being an instructor.

Before I carried a gun, I sought training, before I carried a knife defensively, I sought the training, before I carried the asp, I had the training. More importantly I was indoctrinated into thinking about the consequences of my actions.

A wise man once told me "forethought, it's the smart mans friend before he has to react to an outside stimulus"

I never put the weapons on and go out without first thinking about their potential use and knowing I am now held to a higher standard, I'm armed [either knives or guns or both ]. And thats after
30 years of carrying them daily.

It's a big responsibility [ carrying any weapon ], but I'll not hold their hands and be their conscious either here or the classroom.

Prudence, forethought, knowledge of the laws, training. Thats what will make the difference.

No need for thanks at being civil, it's an immature soul who argues a point that has no resolution.

Be responsible for your actions, think about what you are doing, that is the biggest probelm I see in young adults today on the streets. Many do not have the direction in their lives necesary to keep them even keeled and out of trouble long enough to get over the heavily testosteroned faze.

Brownie
 
Brownie,

I can see you have thought this out. I hate to sound two-faced, but I wouldn't mind a man like you carrying a Bowie while I might want to stand a mile away from some kid. Of course, there are lots of implements and ideas where I'd like to keep my distance, however, our debate here is over being burnt out and Bowies.

Like yourself, I practice. Not just with my 1911's but with any gun in my collection, and that's quite a few. My H&K can be carried in condition-one, but I do try to double-action the first round from time to time just to keep an open mind. I do not really have a manual of arms for rifles, and I probably should because I do have a shortie .45-70 that could be pressed into that duty.

As for knives, I have no combat weapon. I do have a custom Chang Bowie, more like the real first bowies (less aggressive clip), but with a hilt. I've computed it, and to have to fall back on that knife would mean firing everything empty (perhaps my wife participating) and the death of 23 men, hardly likely.

I'm glad you also addressed the image issue. We don't need a kid flashing a big knife and ruining the sport for everyone. Our legislators here are already prejudiced against knives and without a clue. Had our CCW law passed, it would have also included knives, EXCEPT SWITCHBLADES. And you know what they meant; they meant Italian stilettos like my cousins carried 40 years ago. That shows you how image matters, people never forget.

Nice debating you, Brownie, even though we are on opposite sides of this debate. It happens. I have also found myself on the reverse side of Sharp Phil, although we get along.
 
The Tourist:

Always a pleasure sir.

Debate is good, brings out ideas and gets one to think both sides of the debate, not just falling into one side of the equation being discussed.

Would that be a Marlin guide gun? I have the long version in 45-70 as well. Nice piece. Thought about trading it for the shorter model but picked up a lever action 44mag with 18 inch tube instead.

Stay sharp

Brownie
 
I have been avoiding this thread just because I'm knife talked out.

My passion for knives is still with me 100% but I get disgruntled with the discussion and the proverbial beating of the dead horse.

When I find that the topics being discussed in an Internet forum have an effect on other aspects of my life (aka Anger Management ;)) than I need to detach myself.

Why do I get angry that all of the Spyderco/Sal groupies are mad about the new Blackwood Benchmade? Who cares, is it really that important to me?

I especially love the Cold Steel threads that have 25 people bashing the company and they probably have never used one of their products.

And the constant threads about Omega springs breaking in Benchmades are a hoot!

I’m not one to jump on newbie’s because they ask an age old question, I mean WTF they’re new, but the veteran’s who want to rehash the same arguments over and over are the abusers.

Can you tell I’ve become somewhat cynical? I used to try not to pi** people off, now if they say something outlandish I think they should be called on it and justify their statements.

I tend to base my opinions on life experiences and not what others say. I don’t buy into a “pack” mentality nor do I support them.

Tourist, I really like you and the way you convey your message. I whole heartedly agree that all too often people make statements around here rather flippantly with no regard for the impression it may leave on others who may perceive themselves as being less knowledgeable.

What I enjoy?

1 - Hunting down hard to find limited edition production folders and using the crap out of them. Yes this includes my 1 of 37 Benchmade 705BC1CFHS :)

2 – The seemingly never ending quest for the perfect chopping, slicing, cutting, prying, game cleaning custom fixed blade.
 
I've computed it, and to have to fall back on that knife would mean firing everything empty (perhaps my wife participating) and the death of 23 men, hardly likely.
Click to expand...
Interesting that you would place so much faith in firearms, and have so little appreciation for edged tools as weapons.

A knife is simply one more option in the "force continuum".

There can be little doubt that knives have a role as tools of force, historically or at present - you may not personally accept that, but the fact that no "knut" has a good knife fight story is hardly proof that knives have no utility as defensive - or offensive - tools.

Personally, knives are last-ditch for me. Although I try, I may not always have a gun within reach; I nearly always have a knife. Should the application of lethal force be required, the knife - and training - greatly increase the odds of success over fists, or a stapler.

Viewing them exclusively as weapons is certainly misguided, as is "romanticizing" knife combat; no one with any sense would choose to fight with a knife.

But discounting their utility as weapons is equally silly - that kid with a Bowie, and some speed, could easily inflict a lethal wound before your HK even cleared leather.

To be suitably prepared, one needs to be competent in the use of a range of force options, including edged weapons.
 
xsrdx,

My comment about '23 men' was meant to be taken as a shocker. First, seriously doubt I could scamper around making every shot count until some guy got lucky. Mostly, it was my editorial comment on this subject. In for a penny, in for a pound.

Brownie and I could 'what if' all night. The truth is that if there is a knife fight heading north, then I'm heading south. I doubt if I would be reponsible for any body count. I don't want years of therapy.

I want people to come to terms with what they are saying. We say 'combat knife' so matter-of-factly, and we should study that issue periodically. BTW, I love knives, even Bowies. I love
reality, too.

edit: Brownie, e-mail me, and we'll chat about my Guide Gun.
 
Holy crap! :eek: Just when I thought I was getting burnt out, I decided to check out this thread, and find discussion of - BOWIES! YIPPEEEEE!!! :D :D


"I like Bowies myself, but I do not see them as legitimate participants in today's defensive spectrum. ....I've computed it, and to have to fall back on that knife would mean firing everything empty (perhaps my wife participating) and the death of 23 men, hardly likely."


While hunting coons, I've had to pull out my Bowie to finish a critter after my .45 couldn't handle the job more times than I can remember. On a few occasions, my gun has jammed in the heat of the moment, and I had to draw the Bowie, or choose between a bad outcome or worse outcome. On one occasion, my shotgun blew up, then my pistol jammed, and then my knife had to save the day all in the period of a few seconds. After seeing time and again what a common pistol (such as my .45) can do to living creatures, and what my Bowie can do, I will say that I would probably reach for my Bowie instead of the pistol in many instances, if for some bizzare reason I knew the encounter would be at close range.


"I love reality, too."

This is reality. If this stuff can happen while hunting, it can happen while defending myself from an attacker, too.
 
Originally posted by the possum
Holy crap! :eek: Just when I thought I was getting burnt out, I decided to check out this thread, and find discussion of - BOWIES! YIPPEEEEE!!! :D :D




While hunting coons, I've had to pull out my Bowie to finish a critter after my .45 couldn't handle the job more times than I can remember. On a few occasions, my gun has jammed in the heat of the moment, and I had to draw the Bowie, or choose between a bad outcome or worse outcome. On one occasion, my shotgun blew up, then my pistol jammed, and then my knife had to save the day all in the period of a few seconds. After seeing time and again what a common pistol (such as my .45) can do to living creatures, and what my Bowie can do, I will say that I would probably reach for my Bowie instead of the pistol in many instances, if for some bizzare reason I knew the encounter would be at close range.


"I love reality, too."

This is reality. If this stuff can happen while hunting, it can happen while defending myself from an attacker, too.
Click to expand...

I will never be knifed out and have had occasion as the above quote to take my bowie out in climbing a cliff after fishing and killing a rattler with it. For people who defend snakes and say I could have went the other way is not true here. He was in the way and I had to "defend" myself. Nice discussion here, makes you consider why you carry knives and all the what-ifs.:)
 
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