EverydayCommentary take on Survive

[Hard Knocks]

It has been a while since I have followed S!K. I know they changed business models, but I had a 5.1 back a few years ago and you could just order them off the site right away. Did the business model change as far as how they produce knives?
I am familiar with how Busse does it, does Survive do the same?
I would be interested in checking out some of their products but (maybe like Tony on everydaycommentary?) I don't understand the Monday thing or how to order the knives.
Actually, I should probably check this sub-forum to see if there are stickies...
Anyways, I have seen lots of activity from around here pop up lately on BF, hope things are well!

Hi Ccc. Here's a link to the 'Heads-up' thread in this forum. Folks here are really good about giving a shout out whenever a S!K pops up somewhere. It's helped me land a couple off the secondary market.

 

[timichango]

Despite his obvious dislike of SURVIVE! and their business model, it's too bad he didn't have more (correct) information to go off of. Like I said, most of what he wrote echoes comments I've heard from others that want a GSO and gave it an honest try for a bit, but just weren't around long enough to understand the big picture.

My impression is that he *does* get the big picture and value proposition of Survive's knive's but just doesn't agree with the model. I'm patiently waiting for the knife (now *knives*, actually), I've ordered from them, and I'm content to do that, as I have plenty of other great blades to use in the meantime, but there's validity to the notion that any conventional business would take on financing to scale up production to meet the very obvious and demonstrable market demand for the product.

Now, for sure, scaling up a high-quality manufacturing operation does take a lot of capital, expertise, and is fraught with risk, but it's not totally invalid for someone to suggest that that's a preferable alternative to stifling the growth of the potential customer base by not doing whatever's needed to increase the availability of the product.

I'm stoked on the product, and I'm eager to get my hands on mine, but if I was a new knife buyer (or someone that only wanted one high-quality knife, and had no interest in collecting), and found the Survive! knives to be an attractive option (which they undoubtedly are), it's pretty unlikely that I'd wind up with one, just on account of how cryptic and long the process of laying hands on one is. Ultimately that's what I perceive about the EDC blog dude's rant: he's arguing that ideally one shouldn't need to decode the secret process of purchasing a knife, nor become fluent in a webforum subculture — or get hosed on price at auction — just to own one. To me, that's a very valid criticism.

 

[Lazarusrat]

I wonder if this guy would even listen to a reply from Survive if they gave one?

It seems to me that what really has this guy upset is you pay full price for a knife in advance. If that is what is bothering you than "don't buy". Buy a Bark River or what ever else you want.

Going into buying a Survive knife I knew 3 things.
1. It's a small company, in fact its a super small company. Given how small survive is I had a feeling that money up front would be used to pay for the materials used it make the knives. I highly doubt that Survive has enough capital lying around to pay for all the steel, kydex sheaths, heat treating, and handles for entire batches of product in advanced. So the only solution is to ask for money up front. I get it.
2. The only way to make knife production cost effective is to make the knives super expensive so you can produce in super small batches OR make the knives reasonably priced and produce in a larger batch. The down side of the larger batches are the people that invest early find themselves waiting for what seems like an eternity.
3. Survive knives are anal about quality. To me that's a good thing and what I am looking for. I pay good money for a knife and I want a flawless one. If 2 other blades get rejected and sold as "seconds" in order to get me my knife, cool beans. I helped fund 2 people getting "seconds". I can wait for what I paid for.

I get that people are upset and lets be honest the Survive production schedule leaves a lot to be desired which only fuels that anger which results in bad PR like this article.

So what should Survive do about it? Honestly that is up to Guy and Ellie. If I were them I would do the following...
1. List how many knives shipped out the previous week. Re-assure people knives are shipping which seems like the most serious concern.
2. List how many knives are in production and how many of those are already taken as pre-orders. This will put a stop to people complaining about "never having stock". If they know up front that every knife in production is spoken for the only way to get one is pre-order it's a non-issue. If you know there are 15 knives pre-ordered, batch of 30 knives are in production, 5 are reserved in case pre-ordered knife fails quality control you can camp on the Monday sales for a shot at one of the 10 available knives, or even better would be if you could call in and reserve a knife moving it from extra production to pre-order. It would make a lot of people happy.
3. Revamp the production estimate. 1-2 months for material and 4-6 months for production isn't realistic based on what I've observed. Best case scenario is people feel your production is just wrong, worst case scenario is people feel you have straight up lied to them. I can handle a wait, I understand things happen and schedules push out and I can live with that. What I can not live with, or tolerate, is being lied to so why even run that risk. Tell it like it is.

 

[TRfromMT]

I attempted to make a related point in a different thread - I've been patiently collecting S!K now for a bit over 9 months. In that time I have had 5 of them, currently own 4 and hope to have another by the end of the year. Just one man's opinion, but they ARE available if you spend some time looking. And while this may generate frustration in some camps, I think the limited supply and the camaraderie in this community where we help each other find a knife is part of the allure of the brand. If you want in stock, off the shelf for everything you own, you wont be happy with S!K. If you appreciate the old axiom, "quality is worth the wait," then you will be fine here. While I do hope S!K rises to the challenge - for THEIR betterment - I hope they stick to their principles and continue to do it their way.

In the mean time, that guy needs to learn that if he spent as much time trying to make a contribution to the S!K community as opposed to falsely ranting, he would have the knife or knives he says aren't available.

 

[Silver Needle]

My impression is that he *does* get the big picture and value proposition of Survive's knive's but just doesn't agree with the model. I'm patiently waiting for the knife (now *knives*, actually), I've ordered from them, and I'm content to do that, as I have plenty of other great blades to use in the meantime, but there's validity to the notion that any conventional business would take on financing to scale up production to meet the very obvious and demonstrable market demand for the product.

Now, for sure, scaling up a high-quality manufacturing operation does take a lot of capital, expertise, and is fraught with risk, but it's not totally invalid for someone to suggest that that's a preferable alternative to stifling growth of the potential customer base by not doing whatever's needed to increase the availability of the product.

I'm stoked on the product, and I'm eager to get my hands on mine, but if I was a new knife buyer (or someone that only wanted one high-quality knife, and had no interest in collecting), and found the Survive! knives to be an attractive option (which they undoubtedly are), it's pretty unlikely that I'd wind up with one, just on account of how cryptic and long the process of laying hands on one is. Ultimately that's what I perceive about the EDC blog dude's rant: he's arguing that ideally one shouldn't need to decode the secret process of purchasing a knife, nor become fluent in a webforum subculture — or get hosed on price at auction — just to own one. To me, that's a very valid criticism.

I can understand some of the frustrations, but some things that seem to cause his frustrations just aren't true. And I know that SURVIVE! knows there's room for improvement. The big thing the author kept coming back to is the idea that Guy is embracing some trendy fad of purposely making his knives hard to get and only releasing small batches as a sales tactic. If he really thinks Guy is out to fool people by displaying designs and specs on the website yet delaying the production on purpose, then I'd strongly disagree.

The ways to get a GSO have changed and varied since the starter and looking at it now, it is not as straightforward as going to any big retail site and ordering the production knife you want. Looking at the history behind it though, the various ways to get a knife came about in an effort to HELP people and not the opposite.

The down side of the larger batches are the people that invest early find themselves waiting for what seems like an eternity.

I know you're only a couple posts in, but I like you already
You brought up many good points, especially about S! quality standards. The part I quoted you on is a little bit of a learning experience for the company and customers together and the biggest complaint from "nonbelievers".

 

[scu09144]

Hi, everyone. This is Tony and I run Everyday Commentary (and the podcast Gear Geeks Live).

Thanks for the great feedback. I'd invite anyone that wants to to write a response (or authorize me to quote a response written here) and I will publish it unaltered. I'll then respond to those criticisms. Additionally, I'd invite anyone on to the podcast to debate this issue.

Specifically, and briefly, the complaint with Survive Knives is not about the wait. I waited four years for my Scott Sawby Swift. I waited three for my Anso. Waiting is not an issue. It is the overly complex ordering system and the unclear product status. I bought the GSO and it was labeled "in stock." I received an email today that said it was not in stock, that they were working on orders from earlier this year and that they have work to do on mine before it is finished (I.e. Sharpen the edge). That's not what people me when they say in stock.

Send in your comments or authorize me to use this stuff here. The knowledge this forum possesses always impresses me and so having these very good points brought up is incredibly helpful and information I think other folks would like to know (including folks that read my site). You can reach me at my site under "Contact" or at everydaycommentary at gmail dot com in the usual format.

 

[timichango]

I wonder if this guy would even listen to a reply from Survive if they gave one?

It seems to me that what really has this guy upset is you pay full price for a knife in advance. If that is what is bothering you than "don't buy". Buy a Bark River or what ever else you want.

Going into buying a Survive knife I knew 3 things.
1. It's a small company, in fact its a super small company. Given how small survive is I had a feeling that money up front would be used to pay for the materials used it make the knives. I highly doubt that Survive has enough capital lying around to pay for all the steel, kydex sheaths, heat treating, and handles for entire batches of product in advanced. So the only solution is to ask for money up front. I get it.
2. The only way to make knife production cost effective is to make the knives super expensive so you can produce in super small batches OR make the knives reasonably priced and produce in a larger batch. The down side of the larger batches are the people that invest early find themselves waiting for what seems like an eternity.
3. Survive knives are anal about quality. To me that's a good thing and what I am looking for. I pay good money for a knife and I want a flawless one. If 2 other blades get rejected and sold as "seconds" in order to get me my knife, cool beans. I helped fund 2 people getting "seconds". I can wait for what I paid for.

I get that people are upset and lets be honest the Survive production schedule leaves a lot to be desired which only fuels that anger which results in bad PR like this article.

I think the author of the article did exactly what you're advocating: he didn't buy. (I stand corrected — he did, see comment below!)

Totally agree with the points you're listing about the current state of Survive (ie. it's a small company, bigger batch size = cost effectiveness over smaller-batch production, maintaining a wonderfully high QC tolerance level). I just think that the blog post author raises the legitimate point that none of those things are written in stone, and, conventionally, businesses tend to locate financing in order to secure growth capital, and scale up their operations aggressively to meet demand, while maintaining their price point. It's definitely hard to do that, while maintaining the third point — high quality — but it's not impossible.

Anyways, Survive is what it is: a young company, who's still growing - albeit more slowly than some people would like. Their product is good enough that they can 'Survive' *ahem* the negative criticism associated with their unconventional delivery model. It's simply a consequence of the way they've decided to grow the company, and I'm sure that's a calculated and accepted risk, so I'm not too worried about a bit of bad PR doing them much real damage. If anything, now more people know that they even exist, and will consequently find out about the quality that they're focused on delivering.

It'd be a mistake to not take heed of the animosity that the unconventional sales model does engender though — there's probably a natural limit to the size of the 'insiders' market (ie. folks that care about the 'community' surrounding a company, and just want to be a customer without jumping through any weird hoops). It'd be very odd if Guy and Ellie weren't ultimately focused on the brand having more mainstream appeal and availability, particularly given the aggressive price point for what you get. Having consistently available inventory seems like a pretty desirable goal for a company that could really dominate the market if it wasn't as hard as it is to lay mitts on their stuff.

 

[scu09144]

Oh and by the way, I did put the money down and buy a knife. I have been told it will ship in the next couple of weeks.

 

[Standard78]

Oh and by the way, I did put the money down and buy a knife. I have been told it will ship in the next couple of weeks.

It's really nice to see that you're open to listening to our comments without flying off the handle and losing your cool like so many other people have done in the past.
I hope you hear something soon on your knife, and I'm betting that you'll be very impressed with their products.

 

[Riz!]

.

I've waited since November 2014 for a 4.1 directly from Survive and hopped on the pre-order for the starter knives the following April. I have learned that patience is a great virtue when acquiring Survive Knives.

Dude is that an old or a new spec 4.1?? Has it really been two years since the release of the new spec 4.1 CAD drawing and opening of the preroder? If its an old spec 4.1 Ide be giving them a call. That doesnt seem correct.

 

[scu09144]

Does anyone have an objection to me using what was posted here in my response to these complaints? I understand that most people wrote what they wanted to say here and no one has taken me up on either of my offers, so instead of making people write something new, I'd like to just take what is here and go off of that.

So, what say you folks? Can I use this stuff? It's a public forum and I could just take it, but that doesn't seem like it would be in the spirit of fostering a good discussion.

 

[Silver Needle]

Does anyone have an objection to me using what was posted here in my response to these complaints? I understand that most people wrote what they wanted to say here and no one has taken me up on either of my offers, so instead of making people write something new, I'd like to just take what is here and go off of that.

So, what say you folks? Can I use this stuff? It's a public forum and I could just take it, but that doesn't seem like it would be in the spirit of fostering a good discussion.

I give you a lot of credit for posting here and being open to discussion. I've been trying to come up with a more thorough response, but in the meantime, feel free to use what I've said.

 

[rcb2000]

Does anyone have an objection to me using what was posted here in my response to these complaints? I understand that most people wrote what they wanted to say here and no one has taken me up on either of my offers, so instead of making people write something new, I'd like to just take what is here and go off of that.

So, what say you folks? Can I use this stuff? It's a public forum and I could just take it, but that doesn't seem like it would be in the spirit of fostering a good discussion.

One thought I had, was that I think you left out some information regarding your Busse order, to better serve your article.
When you said receipt, you didn't mention that they only charge one dollar (to validate your credit card)and that you can cancel at any time.
You also failed to mention "operation two weeks" where they were releasing a brand-new blade every single week for 9 months! They offered 42 knives over that period AND made it to Bladeshow, all while producing orders for LEO/MIL.
Looking at it that way, don't you think it's understandable that you would have to wait an extra four weeks for your knife? I understand that you're trying to write an article and probably ultimately sell advertising but leaving out parts of the truth to better serve your purpose is irresponsible journalism.

 

[Clip.]

Does anyone have an objection to me using what was posted here in my response to these complaints? I understand that most people wrote what they wanted to say here and no one has taken me up on either of my offers, so instead of making people write something new, I'd like to just take what is here and go off of that.

So, what say you folks? Can I use this stuff? It's a public forum and I could just take it, but that doesn't seem like it would be in the spirit of fostering a good discussion.

You're good to use anything I've posted.

I think this will be a very good use of everyone's time here to have a civilized discussion on the ordering process and wait times. Survive! has nailed the steel types, specified a good heat treat from Peters and produces quality work, but improvements can be made to the delivery. Companies and users can all benefit from providing and listening to feedback, and as long as it doesn't devolve into a fist fight everyone wins.

 

[rcb2000]

And in regard to ordering Survive, my experience getting a 5.1 could not have been easier. They sent me an update about when they would be available, so at that time I went on the website clicked on add to my cart and paid for it, three weeks later I had a killer knife at a great price. Pretty simple I think.
I think you are making it sound more complicated and convoluted that really is, again to serve your narrative.

 

[Lazarusrat]

Does anyone have an objection to me using what was posted here in my response to these complaints? I understand that most people wrote what they wanted to say here and no one has taken me up on either of my offers, so instead of making people write something new, I'd like to just take what is here and go off of that.

So, what say you folks? Can I use this stuff? It's a public forum and I could just take it, but that doesn't seem like it would be in the spirit of fostering a good discussion.

Fine by me but I think people reading my post will be bored.

 

[Lazarusrat]

Anyways, Survive is what it is: a young company, who's still growing - albeit more slowly than some people would like. Their product is good enough that they can 'Survive' *ahem* the negative criticism associated with their unconventional delivery model. It's simply a consequence of the way they've decided to grow the company, and I'm sure that's a calculated and accepted risk, so I'm not too worried about a bit of bad PR doing them much real damage. If anything, now more people know that they even exist, and will consequently find out about the quality that they're focused on delivering.

It'd be a mistake to not take heed of the animosity that the unconventional sales model does engender though — there's probably a natural limit to the size of the 'insiders' market (ie. folks that care about the 'community' surrounding a company, and just want to be a customer without jumping through any weird hoops). It'd be very odd if Guy and Ellie weren't ultimately focused on the brand having more mainstream appeal and availability, particularly given the aggressive price point for what you get. Having consistently available inventory seems like a pretty desirable goal for a company that could really dominate the market if it wasn't as hard as it is to lay mitts on their stuff.

This is completely hypothetical and I could just plain be wrong so take this with a grain of salt.

It seems to me the Survive knives business model is closer that of Randall made knives than other knife companies and as such it is going to have the same complaints Randall does. Super high quality, super long waits. Randall doesn't charge the full price of their knives up front because they have enough capital to cover all knives in production but they do charge $50 non-refundable up front just to take an order to weed out people who are not serious. I think Randall wait is 5 years right now. It wouldn't surprise me if Survive adopts the same ordering system that Randall uses once they build up capital reserves.

I think the biggest question that Survive is going to have to face is "Where do they want to take Survive as a company?". If they want to follow Randall's lead then they need to be realistic on their production schedule. All knives are a year out from the time you order with factory seconds available only as they occur. If they want to go more mainstream than they are going to need more craftsmen and Guy is going to have micromanage less while still maintaining Survive's high quality control (which is doable if you have skilled craftsmen working for you but it takes time to develop talent like that).

Either way, I think we all can agree that Survive has some short term issues they need to resolve. They have a great product at a good price point and a wait that I feel isn't that excessive for what you get. Some people may disagree with the wait and the ordering interface on the website but looking at how Survive is making knives at this moment in time what they are doing is understandable. By having pre-order windows they are limiting the number of knife orders they will accept to keep from being overwhelmed by knife orders. Granted you could argue that they have already accepted to many orders already if they can't clear their sales by their production estimates, which is a problem don't get me wrong, but that's not really that bad of a problem when you think about it.

 

[Ratman79]

Survive makes a nice knife but they are by no means the "be all end all" of 3v field knives. I have a GSO 5.1 I bought second hand from a buddy who had duplicates, and it is indeed a very capable knife. A fine knife even. But so is my Bark River Bravo 1.5. I have several others from makers on this forum in 3v also and they are all also great tools. Difference is I didn't have to wait 18 months to get them or front the money ahead of time so the owner could pay his rent/overhead etc. while I wait for something that many, many others do--very well too, might I add. This is a production knife purposely run in small batches to create a demand that dwarfs the intended supply. Why not be like the rest of the companies and offer your product in a straightforward manner?

 

[Silver Needle]

Ratman, I'm forced to agree that the output is pretty slow right now, but I just can't accept that it is a sales tactic.

The current output is as fast as they're able to go while maintaining the quality they want. I trust the goal is to produce more and ship it out faster I'd bet they'll do so when it's possible.

 

[Ratman79]

Ratman, I'm forced to agree that the output is pretty slow right now, but I just can't accept that it is a sales tactic.

The current output is as fast as they're able to go while maintaining the quality they want. I trust the goal is to produce more and ship it out faster I'd bet they'll do so when it's possible.

I really hope they can get to the point where they can have a running inventory. I know I would buy some more for sure...

I don't know what Guy's long term goals are but I, for one, would love it if the day came where S! knives were at BladeHQ (in stock that is!), Knifecenter, DLT, KSF, etc. It would be good for us, the buyers, and for Survive as a company b/c they would have massive exposure.

People who may not have been aware previously would check them out. Again, I don't claim to be a marketing expert or anything but exposure is always a good thing. For example, I was unaware of Survive until I joined this forum. Then I wanted to know what the "capital S and the exclamation point" was all about. I don't know if I would have found them (as quickly) otherwise. If they were listed on any of the above dealer sites, I would have found them a while ago.