Everyone's opinion please...

Allen,
Actually it's apparent that you have a nice classic sense of style from your comparative above.

I like the XM-18 for all the reasons that seem to push you in favour of the classics. I think Rick uses 20CV steel also, another reason to consider the XM-18.

I don't think it's fair to compare the Endura and the XM-18. The Endura offers a lot of cutting at that cost. Is the XM-18 better than the Endura? probably not, but if I could afford the XM-18, I would.
 
With no disrespect meant toward Mr. Hinderer, running over a knife really does not show how tough it is (as my earlier testing proved).

But since I had no pictures to back my tests up, I just went out in the garage and ran over my Endura 4.

Please pardon the poor images...it's rather late at night, the lighting in my garage is not very good for photos, and I've had a few shots of vodka too. :D


knives317.jpg



knives312.jpg


My Endura 4 works just fine after the being under the tire of my truck (but I think I need to check the pressure in my tires, they look a little low).

Anyway, I can take some better pics tomorrow if you like.
 
Actually Rick is using Duratech 20 CV for the XM-18's, and not S30V. And Rick makes EVERYTHING, on his knives!! He has used the XM-18 as a throwing knife, as there was no damage whatsoever to the XM-18! Try THAT with your Opinel!! The Spanto blade that Rick created is a tough blade, and the tip is sharp and thick enough for prying as well. You be hard pressed to find a tougher knife.
 
Hello Everyone!...Very good post here...alot of good points...and alot of the same custom vs factory and custom vs handmade :) I want to thank all of you who support my work!

I'll explain my XM-18 folder and why i designed it the way I did..

The XM-18 was designed to be a all around hard use folder...

The Spanto blade was designed to be a tough all around hard use blade style...in a knife that will be used for a wide variety of cutting chores the blade will eventually be used as a screwdriver:)...period..I know people will say the they would never abuse a knife in such a way...well if you were in a sinking car and had to pry a lock on the door would you say "nope I wont use my knife like that" haha...the tip of the Spanto will do that and not break! will the Buck 110 do that?...the Spanto was designed to incorporate the slicing ability of a spearpoint with the tip strength of a tanto..

Everything on the XM-18 was beefed up to take very hard punishment without being too bulky..afterall if the knife is too bulky to carry then it will end up in a drawer and not being used...

I once used my XM-18 to pound a steel insulater attacment on a fence post..I used the back end of the knife to do this,with alot of impact to the g-10 handle....of course all it did was scuff the finish...will a wood handled Opinial,or a Zytel handle take that without breaking?..

Allen, the pic of my XM-18 under a tire is demonstrating the strength of a folder with a OPEN BACK design using standoffs..the Endura is a CLOSED BACK with a full length steel bar in between the liners/handles...of course it will take the weight...my reason for useing the "open back" design?...ever get blood and goobers in a knife and need to wash it out?...trying cleaning a closed back knife....ever get lint in the lockbar slot of a lockback?..

in a nutshell, if all your going to do with a folder is slice vegtables or open letters than yes, a small pen knife will do the job...

There are alot of opinions out there concerning knives and their designs...my opinion and design aspect was derived from using these knives hard as tools in my duties as a firefighter/emt....the knife in my duty gear is a TOOL..and it must perform when asked to do a multitude of tasks...these tasks include alot of chores that would break the less expensive folders mentioned here..

Allen,if you were in a car wreck and trapped by a pushed down dash and the fire is starting,and I pull up and start to pry and cut the debris thats trapping your legs, would you rather i had a $30.00 Buck 110 or a $385.00 XM-18 designed for that kind of work?....oh and we only have a few seconds...so decide quickly!

Thanks again everyone!!!

Rick Hinderer
 
Good morning Rick!
Thanks for joining us on this one.

Just so we are clear, I never said that your knives were bad in any way...they're fine knives to be sure.
I just think they are too high in price (and I feel that way about most high dollar knives, not just yours).
But I am a capitalist and I'll never begrudge a man the chance to be successful and make a profit.
And I personally wish you great success in your business ventures.

Allen, the pic of my XM-18 under a tire is demonstrating the strength of a folder with a OPEN BACK design using standoffs..the Endura is a CLOSED BACK with a full length steel bar in between the liners/handles...of course it will take the weight...
Click to expand...
Did you check out the link to the thread that I posted?
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=352994
During that previous bit of insanity I ran over quite a few knives and all of them survived with no functional damage:

Benchmade 556
Spyderco Rescue
CRKT M16-03 (an OPEN BACK design)
Timberline Timberlite
Gerber Para-Frame (another OPEN BACK design, and a frame-lock to boot)
Kershaw 2950 (which has an Opinel style lock)
Spyderco SS Endura
Spyderco Micarta Calypso Jr
Benchmade 722

This is not to say that your knife is weak in any way.
But it does demonstrate that the "under the tire test" really does not prove a knife's strength at all...nearly any knife will survive that test just fine, including most open back designs.

The Spanto blade was designed to be a tough all around hard use blade style...in a knife that will be used for a wide variety of cutting chores the blade will eventually be used as a screwdriver
Click to expand...
I agree 100% that some knives perform better than others when used as a screwdriver.
But surely the average Joe can find a much cheaper knife to abuse than one of your fine knives....maybe a multi-tool?

...well if you were in a sinking car and had to pry a lock on the door would you say "nope I wont use my knife like that" haha...the tip of the Spanto will do that and not break! will the Buck 110 do that?...
Click to expand...
No, I don't believe that a Buck 110 could PRY open a locked car door.
Actually, I don't think ANY folder can.
Have you actually did this with a folder?
And wouldn't it be easier and quicker to CUT through the roof of the car, where the sheet metal is thin?

I once used my XM-18 to pound a steel insulater attacment on a fence post..I used the back end of the knife to do this,with alot of impact to the g-10 handle....of course all it did was scuff the finish...will a wood handled Opinial,or a Zytel handle take that without breaking?..
Click to expand...
I could give it a try I suppose...
I don't think they would just "break", but I don't think they would make very good hammers either (not enough weight).
But I did once drive the blade of a old Spyderco Endura (the model without steel liners) through a piece of cedar by batoning on the FRN butt of the knife...the pivot was a little loose afterwards but the knife still functioned just fine.

There are alot of opinions out there concerning knives and their designs...my opinion and design aspect was derived from using these knives hard as tools in my duties as a firefighter/emt....the knife in my duty gear is a TOOL..and it must perform when asked to do a multitude of tasks...these tasks include alot of chores that would break the less expensive folders mentioned here..
Click to expand...
I'm glad that you told me this because it does explain a lot.
So, basically you designed the XM-18 to be more of a "single blade multi-tool" rather than just as a pure slice and dice knife?

Allen,if you were in a car wreck and trapped by a pushed down dash and the fire is starting,and I pull up and start to pry and cut the debris thats trapping your legs, would you rather i had a $30.00 Buck 110 or a $385.00 XM-18 designed for that kind of work?....oh and we only have a few seconds...so decide quickly!
Click to expand...
Honestly, I don't think one would perform any better than the other in such a situation.
Neither folder would be really great at prying apart a crushed car, and both knives would be fine for cutting plastic, wires, insulation, foam, and such.
If the tip of the 110 broke, well then you just have a screwdriver tipped Buck 110.
And even if the rescue totally ruined the 110, I could replace it for about $30.00 dollars at Walmart (provided I survived).

Anyway...
Again, I'm not trying to disparage your knives or yourself.
But being a man of limited monetary resources (in other words...I be po' :D ) I just don't see ANY knife being worth $400.00 dollars.
Call me a cheapskate or a tightwad if you like but that's how I see it.

Allen
 
Allen, you're not being a cheapskate to value money, but concluding that inexpensive knives can do the same thing as expensive ones is an apples and oranges comparison.

The cars analogy can demonstrate it: will the less expensive car brake, corner, accelerate, and keep you as alert as a more expensive one? No, as 50 years of published road testing has proved time and time again. It's not all in the materials, or tire type, or brake lining - it's the expense of engineering a total package with no weak areas that simply performs better.

Inexpensive 420J linerlocks cannot perform as well as better made Spydercos and Benchmades - I am aware of diminishing returns beyond the $150 threshold, but again, a total package thoughtfully brought together will show it's worth to those who can see the difference and demand it.

Being po', I learned long ago to pay for quality and cry just once, rather than over and over again. I have a box of cheap knives - including an Opinel I never use (lousy EDC for me,) and they all could have paid for the SnG I can carry the rest of my natural born days.
 
Allen...hahaha...ok,

number 1... I didnt say pry open a locked car door..I said pry a lock on a door....

number 2...I used the analogy of rescueing you from a car with your legs trapped...thinking you know a little about rescue work..obviously if you knew something about rescue work you would have seen my point...cutting through the roof of a car with a knife!?? HAHA....dont think so.....guys that do this type of work will know what I mean...


if your tool breaks sometimes you dont get a second chance...as you said it "If I survive"...

if you want to buy and stake your life on cheap knives..hey thats up to you....but when you come on a public forum and say my knife is no better than a $30.00 knife....well, you'll hear from me..but we have been through this before havent we?...I know I'm just wasting my time with you...:)

Rick
 
number 1... I didnt say pry open a locked car door..I said pry a lock on a door....
Click to expand...
I apologize for misunderstanding you.
Prying the lock on a door?
What kind of lock and on what kind of door? I thought you were talking about a car door.
In any event, whether a given knife can PRY a lock or not has nothing to do with its performance as a KNIFE.
As a crowbar? Yes. But not as a knife.
After all, an awl is a lousy tool for driving nails.
Why? Because it's an awl and not a hammer.
Making an awl that is capable driving a nail does not necessarily make it a better awl.

....but when you come on a public forum and say my knife is no better than a $30.00 knife....well, you'll hear from me..
Click to expand...

I never said that your knife is "no better" than a $30.00 dollar knife.
"BETTER" is a personal definition.
To some folks your knife is better simple because it is more exclusive and is not sold in Walmart.
To others your knife is better because it is a frame-lock.
You're the one who brought up prying and hammering and such.
I have been talking about cutting performance all along.

And none of that refutes my original premise:
There is nothing to suggest that the XM-18, or any other high dollar folder, actually performs cutting tasks better than many low dollar knives (that's MANY, not EVERY low dollar knife).

If you want to pry and hammer with your knife, great, more power to you.
To me, prybar and hammer are not the definition of a knife and have nothing to do with performance as a knife.

But nobody here has yet to answer my earlier question:
What exactly do you think your XM-18 can cut that an Opinel cannot...or that a Buck 110 cannot...or that an Endura 4 cannot...or that a Victorinox cannot...?

...but we have been through this before havent we?...
Click to expand...
Not that I'm aware.
If we have had this debate before, then it has escaped my memory.
To my recollection, this is the first time I've debated with you on the forums....but we have both been members for quite a while, so it's possible.
 
tirod3 said:
The cars analogy can demonstrate it: will the less expensive car brake, corner, accelerate, and keep you as alert as a more expensive one? No, as 50 years of published road testing has proved time and time again. It's not all in the materials, or tire type, or brake lining - it's the expense of engineering a total package with no weak areas that simply performs better.
Click to expand...
The "car analogy" has already been addressed on the first page of the thread (see post #32).
It simply does not correspond to knives.

Inexpensive 420J linerlocks cannot perform as well as better made Spydercos and Benchmades - I am aware of diminishing returns beyond the $150 threshold, but again, a total package thoughtfully brought together will show it's worth to those who can see the difference and demand it.
Click to expand...
It depends upon what you consider performance.
For example...
My Opinel will out slice nearly all of my Spyderco folders.
It's simply that good of a slicer.
I still prefer to carry a Spyderco Endura 4 even though the Opinel outperforms it in some respects.

Being po', I learned long ago to pay for quality and cry just once, rather than over and over again.
Click to expand...
I learned the same thing.
And I agree 100%.
But where we disagree is on the price.
I don't think one needs to spend $400.00 dollars to get a quality knife.
For Example...
The Spyderco Endura 4 is definitely a quality knife and it cost less than $70.00 dollars.
I could give a long list of quality high performance knives that each costs less than $200.00 dollars.
 
allenC said:
I apologize for misunderstanding you.

Making an awl that is capable driving a nail does not necessarily make it a better awl....

I have been talking about cutting performance all along....

....And none of that refutes my original premise:
There is nothing to suggest that the XM-18, or any other high dollar folder, actually performs cutting tasks better than many low dollar knives (that's MANY, not EVERY low dollar knife).....

...If you want to pry and hammer with your knife, great, more power to you.
To me, prybar and hammer are not the definition of a knife and have nothing to do with performance as a knife...
Click to expand...

I think it does make the awl a beter tool. However, it is completely fair to focus in on the knife simply as a cutting tool. Even so I think the XM-18 has an exceptional and unique blade geometry suited for a wide range cutting chores with a high durability that others lack and would therefore excell in a situations where knives cannot be well maintained.

Because folders are items that are often EDCd the added component of concetrating the most and best tools into the pockets (without looking like a pack rat) becomes relevant. While I carry a prybaby as well I think it is quite reasonable to want a folder you can depend on (you know, survival, toughness whatever; even if that is virtually impossible). Although to some this may be out of scope I feel that minimalism when EDCing is important. I cannot carry around I crow bar, all I really want is a good slicer that I can "depend on" if need be.

Not only do I think the XM-18 is a better tool but a better knife as well.
 
I agree with allen in that cheaper knives are often just as good as slicers. Sometimes cheaper knives really are good slicers. I prefer to have a more expensive knife but if my money was limited (which it is) I wouldnt buy an expensive folder so I wont for now. Although I really do like the xm18 and it is my most wanted folder=D
 
What the xm18 can cut that the cheap knives can't is measured in the amount of times we cut something. Any half decent knife is sharp out of the box, but for how long? Nobody wins cutting contests with opinels....that I know of. Bottom line, it really depends on what you expect the knife to do. I have plenty of inexpensive knives (about 200+). I also have some expensive knives, although none in the $400 range. Look at blade geometry & steel type & buy a knife from someone who does a good job heat treating thye blade, then you'll have a good idea how the knife will perform as a knife. If you want an all around tool, get a SAK or multitool. Some cheap knives with thin blades WILL slice through some materials better than the xm18....for example, I bet you can fillet a fish better with a cheap fillet knife than with an xm18. My point, there is no "perfect knife" for everything. I'd get 2 cqc-15's for less than $400, but I've never owned an xm18 & if I did, maybe I'd have a different opinion. Can sombody lend me one for a few years??? :)
 
What the xm18 can cut that the cheap knives can't is measured in the amount of times we cut something.
Click to expand...
Please explain what you mean.


Nobody wins cutting contests with opinels....that I know of.
Click to expand...
I don't know your amount of knife experience, but the Opinel has been around for over 100 years...and with good reason:
It is a fantastic cutter.

You really need to use one firsthand to appreciate how well it cuts.
The carbon steel blade performs very well even against more modern steels like VG-10 and S30V.
I admit that I have never used an XM-18, but I have used Benchmades, Spydercos, Sebenzas, Bucks, kershaws, CRKTs, Schrades, Case's, Gerbers, Victorinox, Wenger's, Timberline's, Camillus, Ontario's, Kabar's, ...among others, and the Opinel is the standard I use when comparing slicing ability.
 
I have an opinel & I'm very aware of the history & what a great knife it is...especially for the money. What I meant is I bet if you were to start cutting 1" hemp rope with the 2 steels side by side, the xm would last longer. Maybe I'm wrong...just my opinion.

Cutting contests as in present day...at knife shows, etc.
 
jkieffer said:
I have an opinel & I'm very aware of the history & what a great knife it is...especially for the money. What I meant is I bet if you were to start cutting 1" hemp rope with the 2 steels side by side, the xm would last longer. Maybe I'm wrong...just my opinion.

Cutting contests as in present day...at knife shows, etc.
Click to expand...

I think that you're wrong.
If you mail me your XM-18, I would be happy to test them and post the results here on the forums. :)
 
Which ignores the industry testing that has already proven cheap carbon steel simply does not hold an edge or make as many cuts as better steels.

"Cut better" is a vague interpretation without any parameters to define what is being cut how many times. No doubt the thin Opinel does a great job in the kitchen or on soft materiels, but it would not hazard the thin blade tip cutting off pool hoses from the nipples to replace a bad section - I have experienced cheap steel - at which point the better knife shows its value.

I don't know of an Opinel that meets anyones critieria for EDC except as a lunch box implement. Many here do more with a knife than slice pickles at our desk.
 
tirod3 said:
No doubt the thin Opinel does a great job in the kitchen or on soft materiels, but it would not hazard the thin blade tip cutting off pool hoses from the nipples to replace a bad section - I have experienced cheap steel - at which point the better knife shows its value.

I don't know of an Opinel that meets anyones critieria for EDC except as a lunch box implement. Many here do more with a knife than slice pickles at our desk.
Click to expand...

Maybe you should check out these threads...

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=429767&highlight=opinel

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=425239&highlight=opinel

Like I said before...
The Opinel has been around for over 100 years.
And it did not survive the "test of time" by slicing pickles.

To put it bluntly...
If you think that an Opinel can't compete against more modern knives, then you really have a lot to learn about knives and cutting.

Thanks,
Allen
 
Fair points all around. I think Mr. Hinderer makes a fine knife, and due to the materials and 1 man making everything, I would say the price is fair.

This thread reminds me of the ol' "Made in China" thread. You could get a Spyderco "Byrd" knife for a fraction of the price which will do pretty much the same things (you could carry two knives for the price of 1 custom -and have money left over, so if 1 breaks you have a backup that razor sharp) -but honestly, how many of you have used a knife to destruction. To break a knife in cutting chores is quite difficult these days.

My take on it is, if you like custom work, then a custom is what you want. If you're just after a good knife, $30 at Walmart will get you a Spyderco Native -which will do pretty much anything any of the knives listed in this thread will do and you won't give a rat's ass if you scratch it up in use.

In the end, it's all just up to how much money you got. In a way, it is a little self-indulgent to be buying high buck knives, as cheaper ones will get the job done, but hey, everyone spends ridiculous amounts of money on things they really don't need.

If you can afford it, that's nice, but I really don't buy the argument that one knife is so massively stronger than another -so it commands a high price. A Benchmade 710 has a strong lock, can be driven over, and used as a throwing knife -but it isn't super expensive. The price lies in the way it's made.

(For the record, of the knives listed in the first post, I would choose Hinderer's XM-18, excellent knife, excellent design and made by an excellent maker :thumbup: ).
 
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