"Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Martensite..." by the intrepid Mr. Cashen

I guess some of the points I'm trying to make with my last post are that bladesmiths can't always rely on metalurgical "facts" to support the validity or quality of their work, and that the interpretation and application of the "facts",... are equally, if not more important than the "facts" themselves.

Simply put,... a handful of isolated "facts", won't necessarily make you a better bladesmith.

I agree wholeheartedly that the major factor in bladesmith's going astray in their information is in the misinterpretation of the facts. This can also happen in labs around the world if the folks harvesting the data don’t stay completely objective and not let what they want the results to be influence them in any way. And of course this is impossible if the building of their “facts” is for the sole purpose of inflating their product or the process.

For this reason isolated facts can be worse than useless in trying to be a better bladesmith. In a martial arts school one of the most pathetic things one encounters are young guys who sign up in order to learn a few moves and kicks and then quit with only a white or yellow belt. All their lives they have been sold a line that the martial arts are a handful of secret moves that will allow you to be invincible. When in reality it is no different that any other discipline wherein the day in and day out total immersion in the practice eventually makes a total package that is trained to do this thing. White or yellow belt levels give you a couple of simple tools to practice with, perhaps when you have reached black belt level you will finally have the experience and skill to put them into proper use proficiently. Attempting to practice the art with only those few isolated moves will mostly likely only get you hurt, perhaps quite badly.

But many bladesmiths have a unique tendency not to work with even isolated facts but instead simply make up the facts as they go along, or try turn their wishful world views into reality and then their main task is to convince or delude as many others that their “new” reality is legitimate. Often in this effort we encounter anti-science statements about how science can lead us astray or that it is just another religious type of view point with not greater ability to see fact than any other belief system. This, of course is hogwash and the people who imply it reveal their medieval mindset and a total lack of knowledge of the history of how we got out of the medieval period. Science is not just another religion or belief system, there is no room for belief in science since it was developed to overcome the superstitious beliefs and relativistic philosophies of the middle ages. However today scary things are happening in science when belief is being injected back into it, creating much of the junk science that mete is fond of pointing out. I am not anti-religion, I am a practicing Catholic, but there was a time that my church would have had me well done on a stake by sunset for saying what I am now saying. We advanced beyond that when we realized that there are questions that science can answer and questions that religion can answer, and when one tries to do the job of the other civilization takes a step backwards. Contrary to first impressions much of religion is relativistic, while science is almost binary code in its right and wrong. There are no “shoulds” or “shalls” in science, instead there are only facts that simply “are”.

So while a handful of isolated facts can be useless when viewed in a vacuum, I will certainly take a handful of isolated facts over some joker’s wild-assed assumptions and made up reality any day in determining my course of action. There are no plans now for a follow up article that will tell how to use those facts since that gets into messing with peoples world views and since true believers will only spitefully discard anything that doesn’t support their methods, I would be only preaching to the choir. Instead I prefer to scatter isolated facts likes seeds on the ground in such numbers that eventually the crop that grows will overtake the weeds and cover the landscape. And when the field is established with the proper plantings, all the B.S. that the jokers want to spread on it will only help fertilize the crop and cause it to grow faster. Indeed I have learned more metallurgy from the characters spouting whacky assumptions as fact, than any of the conversations I have ever had with metallurgists, since that nonsense put the fire in my belly to ask questions and really study. But the crop needs to be planted first or all that B.S. will only grow more weeds!
 
It's one thing to run around in a lab coat looking through microscopes and yammering on about this-ite and that-ite. It's quite another thing to do all that and then go out into the shop and forge a bitchin knife.

Wulf, that is the other side of the coin, since science only deal with cold hard facts it can sometimes get in the way of creative question asking and thinking outside the box. Scientists work with such specialized areas and data that they can very easily start to think inside the box. I have had more than a couple of metallurgists tell me that certain things that I and others do in blades cannot be done. This is because the limited set of facts that they deal with in their specialized field do not allow for those possibilities, plugging in other facts from a wider field will sudden broaden the equation and allow for these things. This still is not any of this relativistic anti-science or “science is just one way of looking at it” gobblety gook, it is instead objective science that does it job properly and asks more questions in order to further the fact finding. The textbooks are only the starting point; they are the launch pad not the entire world. A scientist that stays within the nursery that is the textbooks will remain at that infantile level. The textbooks gave you the basic tools no you need to go out and use them in exploring the world and write new texts!
 
...I see a lot of bladesmiths that try to support their work with metallurgy that doesn’t make sense or hasn't been applied "correctly". Maybe, the metallurgy is not “correct”,… but that doesn’t mean that their knives won’t do what they say. Maybe, they just don't know how to explain it in metallurgical terms, or science hasn't gotten that far yet. From what I know of Kevin, I think he would agree....

You are correct that, once again, we are in total agreement, but some aspects of this I find more offensive. I can’t think of too many things in bladesmithing where science hasn't gotten that far yet, since much of bladesmithing remains centuries behind the rest of the world. In keeping traditions alive this is a good thing, in trying to understand the materials properties and process’ this is terrible. And I think it is this balancing act that gives us the most troubles. I am squarely in the corner of any smith who is struggling to find what is happening inside his blades and how to explain it properly but are searching for the terms. The smiths who want to find the facts for the sake of really knowing are who I write for. The ones I have no sympathy for and who I would like to chisel away at the pedestal upon which they try to stand, are the folks who will only put two bits of data together if it is going to make sensationalistic advertising or perpetuate misinformation that they have a vested interest in protecting. To mislead people just to stay in the headlines, sell a product, or save face, no matter how common the practice may be today, is less than dishonest it is despicable, and self destructive when the deceiver is so good at it that they even fool themsleves. Some may have said this about the ABS over the years, after all they definitely have a vested interest in the forged blade being a wonderful thing, and there were times I did see misinformation embraced because to let go of it would have required facing some unpleasant facts. But that was some time ago and the group is now impressing me with its desire for the facts over myths that make you feel good.
 
Vital information regarding dihydrogen oxide. ;) http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html

I love those pages! Everybody should look at those pages and ask themselves how much of it can apply to the information they are spoon fed every day by our media! When I have gotten a hysteria line from somebody who has fallen for the daily assault of the manufactured crisis’s of the media, I will bring up the deadly threat of dihydrogen oxide, and how many children it kills every year (whenever they involve the “children” , you can grab you ankles an brace for impact :rolleyes:). And did you know that the Navy uses it for some of it newer weapons systems (of course these days if the U.S. military is dabbling with it, it must be thoroughly EVIL!). This example is the best illustration on how ANYTHING can be made to look bad when enough P.R. spin is put on it.

Along with the Penn and Teller petition trick, my favorite was on the Man Show when they got women to line up in the street to sign a petition to “end the suffrage of women!” By shouting that “suffrage” had went on long enough and that women need to unite in order to end it they had every militant feminist within earshot fighting to sign away their right to vote! Studies have been done on how people will simply sign almost any petition that is put in front of them without realizing what they are signing. Our society is so sadly misinformed on any given issues because we have become entirely too used to having information spoon fed to us that somewhere along the line we stopped thinking for ourselves entirely. However I feel to call the general population “sheep” is quite insulting. Sheep can think things through better than that and have some built in instincts that will kick in to save them when you feed them indigestible, toxic garbage. The average human being will just gobble it up and ask for more.
 
On the other hand if the chef fully understands the chemistry and physics of what he or she is creating, they can use that to their advantage in taking their art to new levels. For instance, most folks when barbequeing steaks look for fatty cuts of meat because the fat keeps the meat moist and lends flavor. I hate the mouth feel of fat, and the richly marbled cuts are generally beyond my meager budget, so with a little understanding of food chemistry I created a dry rub for lean roast cuts like eye of round with a sugar/salt/spices base designed to caramelize in the barbeque or broiler to seal the juices into the meat, tenderize it, and turn its juices into a sort of steak sauce. It works well enough that one of the local louisiana style barbeque joints in Rochester wanted to buy my recipe.

-Page

Amen! There are shows on the Food Channel that are more science and chemistry than you will find on the Science Channel! I like to watch them and get floored by how much temperatures and the sequence of operations affect the chemical bonds and the condition of the proteins in food. What makes a chocolate chip cookie chewy, crunchy, or bready is based upon a complex balance of chemistry and physics, and not just how long you bake it. I dare say that a modern chef has more science under his belt in order to produce a culinary masterpiece than your average engineer. If his training is in the appropriate areas, I would rather have a good meal prepared by a scientist than even mamma!
 
I don't have any problem with that. It's "interpretation" and "application".

However, if the food already tastes great and the chef understands why,... will explaining every aspect of it in chemical terms make it taste any better?


It will allow him to write new recipes, and take food preparation to levels never imagined in the older recipes. There are only so many years in life to try to discover things through trial and error, with a detailed knowledge if how things work, much trial an error can be eliminated so that chef can get right to perfecting exactly what he wants to do.
 
Glad you chimed back in here Kevin. :)

I think you and I have a lot in common and agree on most things, but express ourselves differently with different words, personalities, and perspectives... which is good! :)
 
It will allow him to write new recipes, and take food preparation to levels never imagined in the older recipes. There are only so many years in life to try to discover things through trial and error, with a detailed knowledge if how things work, much trial an error can be eliminated so that chef can get right to perfecting exactly what he wants to do.


There's always room for improvement and every little bit helps. :)

We can test the "facts" and learn even more through trial and error (or open minded experimentation) as well... It really takes both.
 
I don't really push science in my approach, but I can't say that it hasn't creeped in. :)

Bladesmithing is a synthesis of many different fields. That's what makes it so interesting.

The broader the base, the better...
 
In science, there is the academic, and then there is application.

What Kevin and others do is an applied science.

In fact, every single one of us practices an applied science when we heat-treat a blade. Some just understand it better than others. And, as has been pointed out a few times already, having that understanding gives the practitioner the ability to tweak the application in a way that best suits his objectives.

No matter what kind of knives we make or why we make them, understanding the science behind the processes can only benefit us.
 
Just for fun,... nothing conclusive yet, here's something where maybe science or metallurgy hasn't gotten that far yet, "HADO". The effects of human consciousness on the crystallization and expression of metals. Strictly based on my own experimentation and work, I get more "beautiful" and colorful quench lines when I'm in the right state of mind.

HADO:
https://www.hado.net/hado/index.php

http://www.hadousa.com/
 
In science, there is the academic, and then there is application.

What Kevin and others do is an applied science.

In fact, every single one of us practices an applied science when we heat-treat a blade. Some just understand it better than others. And, as has been pointed out a few times already, having that understanding gives the practitioner the ability to tweak the application in a way that best suits his objectives.

No matter what kind of knives we make or why we make them, understanding the science behind the processes can only benefit us.

... but it's more than just science, it's art! And, we'll never know all there is to know about either. It's ongoing...
 
The vibrations, or state of mind (or consciousness) that the smith is in, seems to effect every aspect of bladesmitng...

"The human factor"…

... I'm sure our distant ancestral bladesmiths were aware of that,... way before metallurgy.
 
To paraphrase Don Rumsfeld, there are things we know we know, things we know we don't know, and things we don't know we don't know.

By the way, I own a few knives made by Tai Goo and a few made by Kevin Cashen. I consider them all works of art. :)
 
Art! :)

All art involves science, etc,... but not all science involves art, etc... That's the difference.

We have to try and incorporate and apply as many different areas or fields of study as possible and find a balance, within the context of our "concepts".

Metallurgy is not the end all of end alls, last word, final authority or holy grail... It's just another tool for expression.
 
And that's a big part of the appeal of knives for me. They combine elements from a some very diverse disciplines. Knives are at once an expression of beauty and a fine, precision cutting instrument. The marriage of art and science in one simple form. Ain't it cool
 
What Tai is saying is very true and real but most people are not aware of it. Your state of mind shows in your work.

When I go with the flow, it shows in my work. If I fight it, things usually turn to crap.

On the other hand, I have learn a lot from Kevin and implement this into my knife making.
I see this as the best of both worlds.

Balance is a good thing :)
 
And that's a big part of the appeal of knives for me. They combine elements from a some very diverse disciplines. Knives are at once an expression of beauty and a fine, precision cutting instrument. The marriage of art and science in one simple form. Ain't it cool

Yes!

I consider all handmade knives art.
 
What Tai is saying is very true and real but most people are not aware of it. Your state of mind shows in your work.

When I go with the flow, it shows in my work. If I fight it, things usually turn to crap.

On the other hand, I have learn a lot from Kevin and implement this into my knife making.
I see this as the best of both worlds.

Balance is a good thing :)

Balance is a great thing! :)

One thing I've tried to put into practice, is knowing when to pick up the work AND when to put it down,... recognizing my different states of mind when they occur. I've had to train myself to stop when I'm frustrated, tired, in a bad mood, or have too many distracting thoughts, etc. That's when accidents can happens and things can go way wrong...

It also helps to have a clear mental image of what it is I'm trying to accomplish,... or "visualize" it. This includes what’s going on inside the steel at any given moment,... which involves metallurgy.
 
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